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    I don't know what is wrong with these people, it's so upsetting. the BBC hide so much from the public that should be known so this can be stopped
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    Lay Palestinians are not vocally supporting the killers; they are remaining largely silent because they share the anger and frustration of the killers, and they understand the root causes of their desperation, being as they are subjected to them themselves. The people who are vocally supporting the attack are the people who perpetrated it.

    Anyway, if you want to discuss populations supporting the murder of innocents, don't forget the Israeli populace: remember that 95% of Israelis polled supported the massacre on Gaza's innocents.
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    What's with the quotation marks around Palestinians?
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    As long as they call themselves Arabs and Muslims liberal democracy will always fail to spring up in their lands because they have different definitions for "liberal" and "democracy", and as democracy would favour the Islamists, the West would continue to sponsor tyrannies and make these pieces of filth to look better than the Islamists for the freedom of minority groups and democratic values.
    Stuff and nonsense. Arabs and muslims can accept liberal values. Ideas can change.

    Liberal democracy the way you see it is indeed a Western invention but it'll never work in the ME because of the reasons I gave.

    Christianity as far as I know doesn't have a political and social domian or values or system. A fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam is that the former believes in a separation of Church and State (give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's) and the latter demands the establishment of God's law on earth in the political and social domain.

    You are right when you assume that political Islam would give little to no freedom to certain minorities, for example the homosexual community. Fortunately and unfortunately the majority of the ME wants the establishment of Islam in the political and social domain and as long as the majority are Muslims "liberal" democracy would never work. On the other hand the majority of Jews/people in Israel are irreligious and secular, and thus freedom in the way you define it would exist there. (I find this ironic - they use the Bible to claim a birthright to their land and the axiom that Jerusalem is their eternal capital - while throwing away the scripture for other matters - but this is wearing out the patience of their Christian evangelical supporters).
    You are probably right that Christianity is easier to mold into a democratic society than Islam. I would argue that it is not impossible with Islam though either. But if Islam is indeed impossible to fit into a democracy (which again, I doubt) the solution is obvious: abandon Islam.

    I don't care about Christian evangelicals or religious Zionists. I only care that Israel is a liberal democracy living among tyranny. The "land of Zion" means jack **** to me, and I want the entirety of the middle east to be like Israel, not just Judea and Samaria or Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. You are talking about two different types of people when you talk about religious Zionists versus. democrats.

    The downside is the growing anti-American and anti-West sentiment in the ME.
    Which must be opposed and defeated, because the only thing that will make the middle east free is a smaller ego and a greater appreciation for Western liberal values.

    You may not know the future. Hamas and Hezbollah destroying Israel would be better for the entire region.

    When the zionist terrorists carried out their massacres and terrorist acts and succeeded in creating a Jewish state the entire ME saw it as a victory for oppression and evil
    Yes because they have a warped definition of what "oppression" and "evil" are. If Hamas and Hezbollah defeated Israel and wiped it off the map, Tel Aviv would resemble Kabul under the Taliban (or Gaza city under Hamas), rather than Paris or San Francisco under democratic leadership. That is evil.

    You have a us vs them attitude. It's the Western liberal democratic values vs neo-Nazism?

    The difference is with the piece of **** that was Hitler, no one had any idea what he was going to do.

    With the Islamists we know exactly what they want and what they will do. We should just look at history. Political Islam in the form of a caliphate worked for 1300 years. Whether this is better than liberal democracy is for the people there to decide, not you. That's the problem here. You are pro-West blinded, and think that your sense of morality/values is the best there is.
    Yes, it very much is Western liberal democratic values against totalitarian values!

    Whether or not it is better to throw gays off cliffs and cut the hands off burglars and stone to death adulterers, than not, is not for the people to decide - just as it is not for the people to decide whether or not it is a good idea for 51% of us to shoot the other 49% dead.

    Human rights were invented for a reason. They are a bulwark against an oppressive majority. If you support the establishment of a totalitarian caliphate, as you appear to do, then you oppose human rights.

    By the way, you are espousing a total double standard. The German people as a majority, supported the Nazi regime. Therefore by your logic the Nazi regime should have been supported.
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    (Original post by james22)
    If defending myself has the unfortunate side effect of hurting innocents, their blood is on your hands. In war innocent people die as collateral. It happens in every single war in all of history.
    if it has happened in every war in history it does not mean it is therefore moral and okay. excuse you but that is the ****test logic ever.
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    You're extrapolating from the past and applying it to the future, illogical. Egypt and Jordan have both signed peace treaties with Israel, the same can be done with a Palestinian state.
    In principle it can, but you can hardly blame Israel for predicting that the same will happen to the West Bank as happened to Gaza.

    Until the occupation of Palestine is lifted, I see no reason to take action against Hamas until and unless they make an advance on Israel after a two-state solution is finally agreed upon by the Israeli government.
    You see no reason to take action against a jihadist group which targets civilians in order to create a totalitarian Islamic state?

    The blockade itself is leading to terrorist attacks because Israel fails to keep its promises and is keeping people prisoner in the world's largest open-air prison. The Palestinian resistance is using the same arguments as you: why stop using violence when it will result in the continued oppression of the Palestinian people?
    The violence of the jihad is the entire reason the Palestinians have no state. They could have had a state in 1948. They could have had a state after the Oslo accords. Instead, violence. If Gaza was run by a democratic leadership which was not out to destroy Israel, then Gaza would not be an "open air prison".

    They are still resisting. I don't support the majority of their actions, but they are still resisting an occupation and, as such, the term 'resistance' is an adequate one.
    So killing random people is "resistance"? If a prisoner rapes and murders his fellow prisoners because he opposes his sentence, is that "resistance"?

    Once again, let's look at the future. You could hold a grudge against any group of people for decades and justify oppressing them, and many humans do - they're simply not the decent ones, and to make such an argument reduces your credibility as a decent human being. However, your arguments are all too common among humans. A shame.
    I don't hold a grudge against anyone. I wish for the entire middle east to be free. That is why I oppose groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, who are fighting to make the one part of it that is free, unfree.

    He agreed to form a unity government to end the divisiveness in Palestine and because Israel were claiming that unless the Palestinian groups were united, they had no reason to accept a two-state solution. Now, when they are unified, they claim that it's unacceptable. Typical colonialist post hoc rationalisations.

    The Palestinian government is willing to accept a peaceful two-state solution. The Israeli government is not. Until there is a two-state solution, we're never going to get anywhere. When the Israeli government finally accepts a peaceful two-state solution, then we can see what happens. In any two-state solution, Israel's security will be guaranteed - the Palestinian government accepts that. If, after an agreement is made, there are signs that Israel's security is threatened, then actions can be taken, but until Israeli state terror and colonialism is brought to a halt, the blame game will be playing in a constant loop forever.
    The trouble is, Hamas run the Gaza strip, and were elected into power there. That is a root cause. There can never be peace if the people don't support peace. There can never be freedom if the people don't support freedom. Peace and freedom are the two main enemies of Hamas.
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    Lay Palestinians are not vocally supporting the killers; they are remaining largely silent because they share the anger and frustration of the killers, and they understand the root causes of their desperation, being as they are subjected to them themselves. The people who are vocally supporting the attack are the people who perpetrated it.
    I don't know if you read what I wrote, but these cartoons were on the OFFICIAL Facebook page of the ruling Fatah party.

    i.e the so-called 'moderate' Mahmoud Abbas whose party get billions in aid from UK & European tax payers.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    I don't know if you read what I wrote, but these cartoons were on the OFFICIAL Facebook page of the ruling Fatah party.

    i.e the so-called 'moderate' Mahmoud Abbas whose party get billions in aid from UK & European tax payers.
    No. No, they were not.

    Also, don't clip this out; it is important: If you want to discuss populations supporting the murder of innocents, don't forget the Israeli populace: remember that 95% of Israelis polled supported the massacre on Gaza's innocents. Also check out the right-wing demos going on in Israel currently, right this very minute, calling for 'death to all Arabs'.
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)

    remember that 95% of Israelis polled supported the massacre on Gaza's innocents.
    I don't remember this. Do you have anything to backup this claim?
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    No. No, they were not.

    Also, don't clip this out; it is important: If you want to discuss populations supporting the murder of innocents, don't forget the Israeli populace: remember that 95% of Israelis polled supported the massacre on Gaza's innocents. Also check out the right-wing demos going on in Israel currently, right this very minute, calling for 'death to all Arabs'.
    Is that you Remi?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Stuff and nonsense. Arabs and muslims can accept liberal values. Ideas can change.
    That would not happen. Part of being Muslim is the acceptance that "divine law" should be applied to both individual and society. If you think that the religious law contradicts liberal values, then if you are for liberal values you must be against religious law and all those who practice it right?

    You are probably right that Christianity is easier to mold into a democratic society than Islam. I would argue that it is not impossible with Islam though either. But if Islam is indeed impossible to fit into a democracy (which again, I doubt) the solution is obvious: abandon Islam.
    Political Islam is incompatible with your version of democracy. If the war for liberal democracy takes place in Muslim lands it would be effectively a war against Islam.

    I don't care about Christian evangelicals or religious Zionists. I only care that Israel is a liberal democracy living among tyranny. The "land of Zion" means jack **** to me, and I want the entirety of the middle east to be like Israel, not just Judea and Samaria or Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. You are talking about two different types of people when you talk about religious Zionists versus. democrats.
    Yes, I get it. Still its quite ironic to me at least that religious Christian evangelists support a state that is fundamentally uprooting values they consider godly/right (and that you have been fooled into thinking that Israel has nothing to do with religion/Zionism/judeo-Christian values). I still cannot understand why Israel promotes anti-Judaistic values while claiming to be a Jewish state.

    Which must be opposed and defeated, because the only thing that will make the middle east free is a smaller ego and a greater appreciation for Western liberal values.


    Yes, it very much is Western liberal democratic values against totalitarian values!

    Whether or not it is better to throw gays off cliffs and cut the hands off burglars and stone to death adulterers, than not, is not for the people to decide - just as it is not for the people to decide whether or not it is a good idea for 51% of us to shoot the other 49% dead.

    Human rights were invented for a reason. They are a bulwark against an oppressive majority. If you support the establishment of a totalitarian caliphate, as you appear to do, then you oppose human rights.
    I assumed correctly. You do have a us vs them mentality. You think that everyone who doesn't support the establishment of "western" liberal democracy in the ME is an evil totalitarian. Liberal democracy may be your religion but it certainly isn't the only religion out there.

    You have all sorts of false dichotomies and what not in the head of yours. If I'm for a pan-Arabian caliphate then I'm against human rights? That's unfair.


    Yes because they have a warped definition of what "oppression" and "evil" are. If Hamas and Hezbollah defeated Israel and wiped it off the map, Tel Aviv would resemble Kabul under the Taliban (or Gaza city under Hamas), rather than Paris or San Francisco under democratic leadership. That is evil.



    By the way, you are espousing a total double standard. The German people as a majority, supported the Nazi regime. Therefore by your logic the Nazi regime should have been supported.
    Kabul? What are you talking about? The only reason Kabul is Kabul is because of foreign invasions into Afghanistan throughout recent history. The only reason Gaza city is Gaza city is because of the oppression/invasion of Israel in spite of the efforts Hamas takes to improve the welfare and security and resist any future invasions/occupation.

    Tel Aviv was created in blood and at the expense of Palestinian loss. If there isn't a Tel Aviv of today there would also not be a Gaza strip today. I would take that any day m8

    There is no double standard. Nazism and political Islam are very very different. If you think otherwise explain history. My stance is not that all democratically elected govts are legitimate.
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    (Original post by sarsoora)
    if it has happened in every war in history it does not mean it is therefore moral and okay. excuse you but that is the ****test logic ever.
    It's making the point that the deathds in Israel are a natural consequence of war, and not Israel trying to deliberately kill palestinians as a lot of people claim.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    including a British born rabbi
    So is that fact supposed to incense us? If anything, it alleviates the blame on the Palestinians and reinforces the notion that they are defending themselves. What business had a British-born rabbi on the site of Deir Yassin? None at all.
    I will condemn the killers and urge their condemnation the day you and the rest of your Zionist crew condemn Israeli soldiers and police.
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    Is that you Remi?
    No.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611987
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    I can see nothing in there about supporting a massacre.

    I can see support for the military operation against the terrorist rocket attacks but nothing about a massacre

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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    I can see nothing in there about supporting a massacre.

    I can see support for the military operation against the terrorist rocket attacks but nothing about a massacre

    Ha-ha! Very funny. I sniggered. Should've guessed from the beginning that you were only playing the ****wit.
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    Yet still people claim the media is run by "Zionists".


    If you support Palestine it's fine, if you think that Israel does things which are wrong that is also fine, but if you actually think that the British media is Zionist, you have to be either delusional or antisemitic.
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    No. No, they were not.
    Yes, yes, They were.


    The Fatah movement, headed by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, published several cartoons on its Facebook page encouraging Palestinians to carry out car attacks against Israelis for the sake of the Temple Mount. The call for such attacks comes amid an upsurge in incidents of Palestinian terrorists driving vehicles deliberately into groups of Israelis in Jerusalem, with four Israelis killed in the past two weeks.

    One of the cartoons, labeled the “Run Over Organization,” or “Da’es” in Arabic (a play on words on the Arabic acronym for the Islamic State terrorist group, “Da’esh”), calls on adherents to “hit the gas at 199 [km/h] for al-Aqsa,” the mosque on Temple Mount.

    Another post encourages Palestinians to “Run over, friend, run over the foreign settler!”, the Palestinian Media Watch group said.

    The story appears in most non-European publications. Obviously European media is too afraid to anger the Muslims and show up the 'palestinians' for what they are.
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    (Original post by arvy)
    since then the Jewish people (using weapons and aggression which must have been rubbed into them from the brits) have illegally expanded into the region
    Utter nonsense. In the late 1940s, the UN voted to make the Jewish majority areas in the Palestine mandate a Jewish state. How exactly is that unreasonable? That Jewish majority areas shall be ruled according to the democratic will of that majority?

    In response to that, the Arabs commenced a war of annihilation against the Jews in Israel, and they lost. Following that, millions of Jews were expelled from the middle eastern countries and fled to Israel, which is why a majority of Israeli Jews are descended from middle Eastern Jews.

    Like these IDF combat engineers



    I believe they have a right in the region however living under Palestinian rule and law.
    So you don't believe in the right to self-determination? You believe, for example, the Scots should be forced to be part of the UK?

    Jewish people have often stated being happiest living under muslim rule and law.
    "Jewish people" have said it? Like, all Jewish people?

    Give us a citation. Who said it, and when? IF you think Jews were happy being dhimmi, then you are sadly ignorant of history
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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    Yet still people claim the media is run by "Zionists".


    If you support Palestine it's fine, if you think that Israel does things which are wrong that is also fine, but if you actually think that the British media is Zionist, you have to be either delusional or antisemitic.
    This is a non-story, that 'Palestinians celebrate murders'. It didn't happen, and if it did, certainly not in the way implied at all. In fact, there are Israeli demos calling for 'death to Arabs' and the BBC doesn't report on those either, when they are are very much happening and amply covered by alternative media.
    The BBC is heavily biased in favour of Israel. The BBC reports on Israeli woes disproportionately, and that was brought to fore during the Gaza operation which arguably left the Palestinians worse off, but the BBC still managed to make it look as if Israel was the victim. The BBC's viewers are free to protest a perceived bias because the BBC is publicly funded. The only delusional people in the question would be the Zionists protesting the BBC's bias apparently against them, which is ridiculous.
 
 
 
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