Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by Midlander)
We are using history to help us decide the future. For me, Scotland owes an enormous part of its present day 'wealth' to co-operation with England, Wales and (Northern) Ireland and vice versa. As countries we have achieved a huge amount together beyond our small numbers and I find the desire to break it up amidst divisive rhetoric frustrating to listen to.

People say the union has had its time. I disagree. It needs reform, more so in England than the other states, but not dispansion.


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You should be ashamed of yourself, if you really want to involve yourself with history I suggest you print out the rag mans roll and add your name to it.

The union has had its day, It has shrank from covering a third of planet Earth to people begging Scots over the phone to vote no because "we want Scotland to stay, we like Scotland".

Pathetic.

We then had Cameron using the olympic stadium and referencing the olympics while at the same time the No campaign say " don't use sport and politics"

You are a lost cause, brainwashed , and frankly incapable of taking off your metaphorical union jack tinted spectackles.

"Sleekit cowering timorous beastie"
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Midlander
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Can you explain then why the BBC headline is " Yes vote means leaving pound"

Bit misleading isn't it...people will look back in this with shock, BBC can't get more biased, they don't even hide it now.

So we arn't leaving the pound. Thanks for letting everyone know that. Incidentally, I knew what he meant.

Why would they say that? Well they don't want scottish independence, this statement aids in scaring people ergo they agree with it.

Anyways, ladbrokes have Scotland using the GBP if independence happens at 1/3. New currency at 3/1 and euro at 10/1. Most neutrals agree a currency union is what will happen.

Henry mcleish, no voter, has already said that people should be wary of this negative campaigning.
To be honest I am not much of a fan of the BBC's broadcasting, as my comments on monarchy threads here will testify. It is misleading of whoever wrote that headline, I agree-but you do accept that using the currency out with a currency union means less control than being a part of one?

Scotland runs at a loss even with geographical oil share. Financially speaking RUK is better off without it purely from a balance sheet perspective.


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Good bloke
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Most neutrals agree a currency union is what will happen.
There aren't any neutrals. There are (a) those who believe a currency union would have dangers for the UK, (b) those who are ignorant about the subject and (c) the SNP who, blinded by what they want for an independent Scotland, keep repeating that the benefits of a union (which are largely for Scotland) outweigh the disadvantages, in the face of expert opinion and logic.

Use sterling, by all means, but it won't be in a currency union.
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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by Good bloke)

Use sterling, by all means, but it won't be in a currency union.
Not true, Osbornes statement had a wee clause in it. "Currently" was inserted. It was inserted because he knows fine well the UK can't service Scotland debt and that the UK's balance of payments would be destroyed without Scotland.

We will see what they say when the debt comes into the negotiations.
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L i b
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
And if the overall trend continues we will have a Yes vote!
The trend has been towards a larger no lead.

(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Can you explain then why the BBC headline is " Yes vote means leaving pound"

Bit misleading isn't it...people will look back in this with shock, BBC can't get more biased, they don't even hide it now.
Except it doesn't. The headline is "'Yes' vote 'means leaving pound'" - quite different. It's a quote from the Chancellor. Another headline on the BBC Scotland news frontpage also says "currency warning 'a campaign tactic'". That's a Nicola Sturgeon quote.

(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
The union has had its day, It has shrank from covering a third of planet Earth to people begging Scots over the phone to vote no because "we want Scotland to stay, we like Scotland".
"The union" has never covered anywhere outside of the British Isles. Overseas colonies were not part of the United Kingdom, they were possessions of it. And yes, we're quite aware colonial empires are things of the past.

Still, if you want to think of yourself as some sort of modern day colonial peasant, feel free. That's your problem and your own insecurities shining through. The rest of us walk tall as citizens of a modern, multicultural and liberal Britain.

(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Independence will happen. It is inevitable, just a matter of when. Nothing lasts forever, and the United Kingdom has been in decline for a long time now.
Agreed, all countries fall eventually. But I think the concept of Britain will outlast a conception of Scotland, let's put it that way. Let's not forget, the Kingdom of Scotland itself was extinguished three centuries ago.
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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by Good bloke)
There aren't any neutrals. There are (a) those who believe a currency union would have dangers for the UK, (b) those who are ignorant about the subject and (c) the SNP who, blinded by what they want for an independent Scotland, keep repeating that the benefits of a union (which are largely for Scotland) outweigh the disadvantages, in the face of expert opinion and logic.

Use sterling, by all means, but it won't be in a currency union.
People are interested in this referendum around the globe. Neutrals do exist. I would like to think that Putin, for example, is neutral. The russian response to communication with the UK was pretty neutral If I remember right.

What expert opinion says a currency union wont work? The Boe, barclays and RBS have all said they could "make it work". Wheres your source?
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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by Midlander)
To be honest I am not much of a fan of the BBC's broadcasting, as my comments on monarchy threads here will testify. It is misleading of whoever wrote that headline, I agree-but you do accept that using the currency out with a currency union means less control than being a part of one?

Scotland runs at a loss even with geographical oil share. Financially speaking RUK is better off without it purely from a balance sheet perspective.


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Well the BBC should be held accountable. Never seems to happen though.

I'm glad you agree its misleading, most people do so I'm glad you realise that too.

Scotland runs at a loss? Scotland has run a surplus many times over the past decade. In 2008-09 scotlands surplus was 1.3bn. Google it if you don't believe me.
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Cryptographic
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
You should be ashamed of yourself, if you really want to involve yourself with history I suggest you print out the rag mans roll and add your name to it.

The union has had its day, It has shrank from covering a third of planet Earth to people begging Scots over the phone to vote no because "we want Scotland to stay, we like Scotland".

Pathetic.

We then had Cameron using the olympic stadium and referencing the olympics while at the same time the No campaign say " don't use sport and politics"

You are a lost cause, brainwashed , and frankly incapable of taking off your metaphorical union jack tinted spectackles.

"Sleekit cowering timorous beastie"
If we say that we want them to stay, then we are accused of bossing Scotland.
If we say we want them to go we look like *****.
The majority are forced into an awkward nodding.

The Sterlingzone shouldn't happen, Scotland's finance industry is to enormously high. I personally think that there should be no middle ground. If YES is vote, 6 months after the vote, anything remaining in Scotland is Scotland's. They found a new currency, and apply to join the various international organisations.
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L i b
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(Original post by EsomR)
If we say that we want them to stay, then we are accused of bossing Scotland.
If we say we want them to go we look like *****.
The majority are forced into an awkward nodding.
That type of nationalist will scream blue murder regardless of what their opponents say. You can be as reasonable as you like, they'll still endeavour to shout you down.

We've learned to ignore them. They've moved on to a tactic of pretending everything we do will increase a 'yes' vote. Weirdly enough though, the polls show no real change at all.
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Midlander
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Well the BBC should be held accountable. Never seems to happen though.

I'm glad you agree its misleading, most people do so I'm glad you realise that too.

Scotland runs at a loss? Scotland has run a surplus many times over the past decade. In 2008-09 scotlands surplus was 1.3bn. Google it if you don't believe me.
I use Scottish Government figures on public spending. Barnett formula spending on Scotland gives it more than it puts in on an annual basis. I repeat, those are Scottish Government numbers-but you have to convert the percentages they give into pounds and pence.


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Yi-Ge-Ningderen
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Well the BBC should be held accountable. Never seems to happen though.

I'm glad you agree its misleading, most people do so I'm glad you realise that too.

Scotland runs at a loss? Scotland has run a surplus many times over the past decade. In 2008-09 scotlands surplus was 1.3bn. Google it if you don't believe me.
How can you want independence yet accept someone else controlling your interest rates?

Why the half assed attempt of independence.
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CFL2013
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I can't see how this will work.

The SNP think an 'independent' country should have its currency underwritten by another independent country? I didn't do very well in my economics A-level but even I can get my head about that.

They think threatening to default on debts if you don't get your way is going to go down well in international credit markets? Hello Argentina Mk II. As well as destroying your chance of joining the EU, since a veto from rUK would then be inevitable?

And pissing off your major trading partner, a partner that dwarfs you in size and economy? Whose world class financial centre is only a few hundred miles away and speaks the same language?

I'm half Scottish but think it should be left to those who live there to decide. However, the Yes campaigns reaction to some very fair points from the Treasury has been hilarious. All the honest facts should be set out independently with everyone bringing up Braveheart or Culloden or whatever and let the Scots decide.

If Scotland wants Independence then fine, good luck, but it should be lock, stock. At the minute a lot of Yes Scotland sound like some kid who wants to move out but still get an allowance from mummy.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
There is a clear qualitive difference between natural resources and other assets. There is an international consenus in that geographical resources are property of the corresponding country.

Its not unreasonable to say that assets should be divided fairly but geographical aspects should be given to the country in which they are in. We wouldn't demand 2014's crop harvest from the rUK, just anything produced in Scotland thereafter, or 2016 whatever.

Anyone can use the pound if they want to, Anyone. It isn't for George Osborne to decide...incidentally...he may not even be chancellor come 2016!

Can you stop spreading fear and start debating sensible?

Ps. I have already said they empire was good, can we move on? Theres no empire now nae sayer.
He may not be the chancellor in 2016, but he'll be the chancellor in 2014 and 2015. And so far labour and lib dems seem to agree with him.

You may wish to play the victim card on this, but you cannot seriously expect what would be a foreign country to financially guarantee another country after the mess that was seen following the euro crisis a la The PIGS.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Well the BBC should be held accountable. Never seems to happen though.

I'm glad you agree its misleading, most people do so I'm glad you realise that too.

Scotland runs at a loss? Scotland has run a surplus many times over the past decade. In 2008-09 scotlands surplus was 1.3bn. Google it if you don't believe me.
I believe you about the 2008 surplus. But I think you'll find that's the only time. The SNP have been very devious to pass that off as the norm. And with declining output from the North Sea never factored into SNP calculations or the fact that no £ will royally screw over Edinburgh's financial businesses.

Those are the economic arguments. I'm however more concerned about isolating ourselves from family and friends because some people feel speshul and different.
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Cannotbelieveit
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Funny how nationalists are still clinging to the idea of a currency union.

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, get that our of your heads. A major policy of the SNP has been wrecked and now the only argument they have is to assume that British politicians are bluffing.

Beggars belief why people vote for those idiots, I've read the White Paper, it's based completely on assumptions and 'what ifs', there is no conclusive policy on anything even vaguely important. If the Scots do go it alone, the SNP will be leading 6 million people into the unknown, and playing quite literally with their lives.
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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by Yi-Ge-Ningderen)
How can you want independence yet accept someone else controlling your interest rates?

Why the half assed attempt of independence.
The BoE acts independently of westminster, so the the UK already lets someone else set interest rates.
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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by CFL2013)
I can't see how this will work.

The SNP think an 'independent' country should have its currency underwritten by another independent country? I didn't do very well in my economics A-level but even I can get my head about that.

They think threatening to default on debts if you don't get your way is going to go down well in international credit markets? Hello Argentina Mk II. As well as destroying your chance of joining the EU, since a veto from rUK would then be inevitable?

And pissing off your major trading partner, a partner that dwarfs you in size and economy? Whose world class financial centre is only a few hundred miles away and speaks the same language?

I'm half Scottish but think it should be left to those who live there to decide. However, the Yes campaigns reaction to some very fair points from the Treasury has been hilarious. All the honest facts should be set out independently with everyone bringing up Braveheart or Culloden or whatever and let the Scots decide.

If Scotland wants Independence then fine, good luck, but it should be lock, stock. At the minute a lot of Yes Scotland sound like some kid who wants to move out but still get an allowance from mummy.
1. It would be a currency union, thats the plan.
2. The BoE sets interests rates independently of westminster as it is.
3. If we can't have a fair share of assets then why should we take our share of liabilities? Thats just wrong.
4.We want a good working relationship with the RUK, we don't want this "fight". Why not work to make it work for both countries?
5. What has language got to do with the price of milk?
6. Yup, its the people that live here that should decide. I don't believe you care for Scotland at all by the way you speak.
7. Braveheart has never been given as a reason for independence, its a factually incorrect hollywood film...
8. We are 8 odd percent of the UK, we should be allowed 8 odd percent of the assets and 8 odd percent of the debt. George Osborne is saying your not gettign assets but takeyour debt. That my friend... is hilarious.
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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
Funny how nationalists are still clinging to the idea of a currency union.

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, get that our of your heads. A major policy of the SNP has been wrecked and now the only argument they have is to assume that British politicians are bluffing.

Beggars belief why people vote for those idiots, I've read the White Paper, it's based completely on assumptions and 'what ifs', there is no conclusive policy on anything even vaguely important. If the Scots do go it alone, the SNP will be leading 6 million people into the unknown, and playing quite literally with their lives.
Are you serious

Can't you grasp the fact that maybe, just maybe these politicians are saying something in order to further their own agendas? I.E they don't want us to be independent.

Do you want English businesses to have millions of pounds in transactions costs with an independent Scotland?

The Yes campaign don't. The london based parties are claiming they do!
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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I believe you about the 2008 surplus. But I think you'll find that's the only time. The SNP have been very devious to pass that off as the norm. And with declining output from the North Sea never factored into SNP calculations or the fact that no £ will royally screw over Edinburgh's financial businesses.

Those are the economic arguments. I'm however more concerned about isolating ourselves from family and friends because some people feel speshul and different.
It was also the past 4 years before 2008! again google it if you don't believe me. I deliberately held that card close to my chest for when you inevitably claimed it was a one off, as you did! So no, its not the only time, its the 5th time in a decade.

We can use the pound if we want, thats not the issue, the issue is the currency union as you know. The pound is going nowhere, union or not. Ladbrokes have 1/3 that an independent Scotland will use the GBP for a reason, its common sense. Saying otherwise is just trying to frighten people into voting for your cause! Which is morally and ethically disgusting if you ask me.
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
1. It would be a currency union, thats the plan.
2. The BoE sets interests rates independently of westminster as it is.
3. If we can't have a fair share of assets then why should we take our share of liabilities? Thats just wrong.

8. We are 8 odd percent of the UK, we should be allowed 8 odd percent of the assets and 8 odd percent of the debt. George Osborne is saying your not gettign assets but takeyour debt. That my friend... is hilarious.
What all that boasting about the North Sea oil for years and how it's Scotland's? Would you say Scotland should only get 8% of profits from the oil, no you probably wouldn't.

The UK wants Scotland to stay in the UK. If Scotland leave the UK then the UK wants to wash their hands of them, the end, stop holding on to their ankles and GTFO.

That's basically what they're saying, you can keep EVERYTHING in Scotland, all your assets, you can keep the £ in name only and let it take it's own course.

The UK should not have an independent nation, especially such a small one, to make ridiculous decisions on their own currency.

You seriously think Scotland could devalue its currency and stick its finger up at the border and say "yeah well we can do what we want it's our currency too"?
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