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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV Watch

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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    How do we know what a free state of Palestine would look like? Palestine has been at war for over half a century.
    We don't know what a free state of Palestine would look like, because so far none of the Palestinian leaders have shown the remotest interest in creating one. But the only free state in the middle east is Israel (maybe Lebanon too), so we can deduce that if Palestine was given official statehood it would take a miracle for it to be free.

    But if you're going to create a nation state why ship in a load of people from the other side of the world to do it? Why not create a state from the group of people who already live there? To go back to the Kurdistan example, how do you think they would react if you told them that they could have an independent Kurdistan, but they half to give over half of their land to a bunch of Mexicans? How do you think Kurdistan would react when the Mexicans went and established their state and took their land even after the Kurds had said no?

    The Arab states only went to war after Israel declared their independence, this declaration was the first act of war.
    There were already Jews living in the area set up for Israel originally, in fact it was majority Jewish. We don't see the same sort of complaining from the Jews who were forced out of the rest of the middle east (there are no Jews in Libya today, for example, and very few left in Iraq). But even so, the main point I want to make is that we are talking about 60-70 years ago. Can we be a bit less racist, accept the people that exist today as all human, and get on with life? We should value ideas, not racial bloodlines, and today Israel has a monopoly on good ideas in the middle east.

    Why should it look at the west when we have continually instilled and propped up the most brutal of totalitarian dictators, when we have continually invaded them, when we used their homes as a playground for war games with the USSR? The west cares absolutley nothing for the lives of people in the middle east and they recognise that.
    The cold war was "war games"? What planet are you living on? The cold war was in defence of democracy!

    Anyway, the West is the civilisation which has all the good ideas, which is why the middle east needs to learn from it.

    It doesn't, I support the Palestinian people in their fight for freedom. You're the one making it black and white by insisting that you either have to support Hamas or you either have to support Israel. The only morally defensible position in this conflict is to support neither.
    To support neither is the same as supporting neither fascism nor democracy in world war two. Would that make much sense?

    In fact, are you neutral about which side was right in world war two?

    So? It's still a racist country.
    Not really. Arabs have basically the same rights as Jews. There was a scandal concerning sterilisation of some Ethiopian immigrants, but that's a side issue. At its core, Israel is a liberal society, at least compared to its neighbours, where people have individual rights and liberties that they don't have in countries like Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

    Israel has continually been expanding it's border since it's creation

    Only because it took land during defensive wars - hardly "expansionist". And the land it took was not from "Palestine", it was from Britain, Egypt and Jordan. So that map is so misleading it may as well be a fabrication.

    Israel has never offered an acceptable peace offer to the Palestinians and the creation of the Palestinain National Authority has not stopped Israel taking whatever land it wants from Palestinians in the West Bank. Right now in East Jerusalem Israel is bulldozing Palestinian homes, turfing out the Palestinians and shipping in Israeli's, all so that when a peace deal is finally negotiated it can make a claim for the whole of Jerusalem.
    The first peace offering was in 1947. That was perfectly acceptable. They made multiple in fact. Since then it's just got worse and the Israelis have lost patience with the Palestinians. The only Israeli peace offering that would be "acceptable" to someone like Yasser Arafat or Ismail Haniyeh would be self-obliteration.

    Israel is not illiberal for it's election or it's gay rights, its illiberal because it treats Palestinian Arab's like vermin.
    It is at war with people who support organisations which are out to destroy it. That these people suffer is obvious, but the core reason they suffer is the fault of their leaders.
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    This is incredibly disturbing.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-jewish-people

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...internalSearch

    The bill, which is intended to become part of Israel’s basic laws, would recognise Israel’s Jewish character, institutionalise Jewish law as an inspiration for legislation and delist Arabic as a second official language.

    The new wording would weaken the wording of Israel’s declaration of independence, which states that the new state would “be based on the principles of liberty, justice and freedom expressed by the prophets of Israel [and] affirm complete social and political equality for all its citizens, regardless of religion, race or gender”.
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    (Original post by Collaborator)
    This is incredibly disturbing.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-jewish-people

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...internalSearch

    The bill, which is intended to become part of Israel’s basic laws, would recognise Israel’s Jewish character, institutionalise Jewish law as an inspiration for legislation and delist Arabic as a second official language.

    The new wording would weaken the wording of Israel’s declaration of independence, which states that the new state would “be based on the principles of liberty, justice and freedom expressed by the prophets of Israel [and] affirm complete social and political equality for all its citizens, regardless of religion, race or gender”.
    Damn that didn't take long to get into containment...

    The Arabs have always been second-class citizens in Israel, and they simply aren't organised nor have the power to do otherwise. It's highly doubtful that any peaceful measures the Arabs take will be accepted as a legitimate voice in Israel's so called democracy.

    Not to mention that the Likud party, of which Netanyahu is the big boss of, clearly does not support any kind of Palestinian state in its manifesto. There can be no two state solution as long as the Israelis are brainwashed from birth into thinking that the Arabs are subhumans, meanwhile I would highly doubt that the Palestinians would be so forgiving to the murderous and sadistic nature of the Israelis that have ghettoised them.

    Israel is a scum hole and the jews are digging their own grave with the misuse of their power. Come at me JIDF.
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    (Original post by 6Jesus6Christ6)
    Damn that didn't take long to get into containment...

    The Arabs have always been second-class citizens in Israel, and they simply aren't organised nor have the power to do otherwise. It's highly doubtful that any peaceful measures the Arabs take will be accepted as a legitimate voice in Israel's so called democracy.

    Not to mention that the Likud party, of which Netanyahu is the big boss of, clearly does not support any kind of Palestinian state in its manifesto. There can be no two state solution as long as the Israelis are brainwashed from birth into thinking that the Arabs are subhumans, meanwhile I would highly doubt that the Palestinians would be so forgiving to the murderous and sadistic nature of the Israelis that have ghettoised them.

    Israel is a scum hole and the jews are digging their own grave with the misuse of their power. Come at me JIDF.
    There was a time when I thought Israel was progressing and a beacon of hope for the Middle East, not regressing.
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    (Original post by Collaborator)
    There was a time when I thought Israel was progressing and a beacon of hope for the Middle East, not regressing.
    Israel's a great place if you're a jew.

    What do you mean by progressing (or progress) btw?
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    (Original post by 6Jesus6Christ6)
    Israel's a great place if you're a jew.

    What do you mean by progressing (or progress) btw?
    Not even that. Ethiopian Jews face racial abuse and there are reports of Israeli health services issuing birth control injections to Ethopian Jewish immigrants without their consent.

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    (Original post by 6Jesus6Christ6)
    Israel's a great place if you're a jew.

    What do you mean by progressing (or progress) btw?
    Well it used to be an imperfect democracy and a place for slowly improving liberal values. It had freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion and a positive view towards LGBT & women's rights in comparison to its neighbours. Now it is no better than them.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Only because it took land during defensive wars - hardly "expansionist". And the land it took was not from "Palestine", it was from Britain, Egypt and Jordan. So that map is so misleading it may as well be a fabrication.
    So which wars were they fighting when setting the lands in the West Bank and why didn't they change the borders accordingly?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So which wars were they fighting when setting the lands in the West Bank and why didn't they change the borders accordingly?
    They fought the 1967 war (the "six-day war") with Jordan and Egypt (and Syria, from whom they claimed the Golan heights), at which point they captured the West Bank and Gaza (as well as Sinai) from those two countries respectively. The reason for the start of the war was aggression on Egypt's part - Egypt was run by the pro-Nazi anti-Semitic dictator Nasser whose objective was to "destroy Israel". Only once the land passed to Israel did a claim for Palestinian statehood magically arise. This tells me that a two-state solution wouldn't actually be a solution, since the basic issue is lack of acceptance of Israel's existence at all.
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    (Original post by Collaborator)
    Well it used to be an imperfect democracy and a place for slowly improving liberal values. It had freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion and a positive view towards LGBT & women's rights in comparison to its neighbours. Now it is no better than them.
    I suppose Israel has abandoned elections, Netanyahu has been installed as a dictator and people are now arrested at the annual Tel Aviv gay pride parade, then?

    Because that is what it would take for Israel to be "no better" than its neighbours.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I suppose Israel has abandoned elections, Netanyahu has been installed as a dictator and people are now arrested at the annual Tel Aviv gay pride parade, then?

    Because that is what it would take for Israel to be "no better" than its neighbours.
    No, but has made Arabs second class citizens. That's why it is no better than the others.
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    (Original post by Collaborator)
    No, but has made Arabs second class citizens. That's why it is no better than the others.
    Second class citizens inside Israel?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Second class citizens inside Israel?
    Yes. http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-jewish-people
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    You could point to equally silly legislation in England and Wales (for example). The question is: do Arabs in Israel not enjoy the same democratic rights as Jews? Even if they fare slightly worse, they still fare better than in any Arab country.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    You could point to equally silly legislation in England and Wales (for example). The question is: do Arabs in Israel not enjoy the same democratic rights as Jews? Even if they fare slightly worse, they still fare better than in any Arab country.
    Yes the enjoy the same democratic right as Jews for now. The new legislation marks the start I fear of a regression in Israeli politics and culture.
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    (Original post by Collaborator)
    Yes the enjoy the same democratic right as Jews for now. The new legislation marks the start I fear of a regression in Israeli politics and culture.
    Fair enough, but didn't you say that the state was currently "no better" than its neighbours? Surely that would be nonsense given what you've just said?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Fair enough, but didn't you say that the state was currently "no better" than its neighbours? Surely that would be nonsense given what you've just said?
    No. The 'state' is currently no better than its neighbours. The people who live under that state are not the state itself. The state itself (government) is hardly helping itself when it wants to promote itself as a progressive establishment, when it over reacts to 3 boys getting murdered. Yes it should have reacted, but not to the extent of an invasion. The people themselves are starting to regress through support of this legislation, and support of an over reactive government. I have no objection to Israel defending itself. But what I do object to is mass civilian casualties, which could have been avoided, and legislation that divides people into two classes of people.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    They fought the 1967 war (the "six-day war") with Jordan and Egypt (and Syria, from whom they claimed the Golan heights), at which point they captured the West Bank and Gaza (as well as Sinai) from those two countries respectively. The reason for the start of the war was aggression on Egypt's part - Egypt was run by the pro-Nazi anti-Semitic dictator Nasser whose objective was to "destroy Israel". Only once the land passed to Israel did a claim for Palestinian statehood magically arise. This tells me that a two-state solution wouldn't actually be a solution, since the basic issue is lack of acceptance of Israel's existence at all.
    And is there really acceptance of a Palestinian state is Israel, may I also remind you that the West Bank was merely occupied, and still formally is, so again, what is Israel doing settling there?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    And is there really acceptance of a Palestinian state is Israel, may I also remind you that the West Bank was merely occupied, and still formally is, so again, what is Israel doing settling there?
    I oppose the West Bank settlement expansion in theory, but it isn't the root cause of the conflict, otherwise there would not have been such a conflict before 1967.

    There was acceptance of the existence of a Palestinian state in Israel since 1948, but in recent years things like the second Intifada, the Gaza wars and all the other wars against Israel's existence have hardened the attitudes of many there.
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    (Original post by Collaborator)
    No. The 'state' is currently no better than its neighbours. The people who live under that state are not the state itself. The state itself (government) is hardly helping itself when it wants to promote itself as a progressive establishment, when it over reacts to 3 boys getting murdered. Yes it should have reacted, but not to the extent of an invasion. The people themselves are starting to regress through support of this legislation, and support of an over reactive government. I have no objection to Israel defending itself. But what I do object to is mass civilian casualties, which could have been avoided, and legislation that divides people into two classes of people.
    The invasion wasn't simply a reaction to three boys getting murdered. That was the final straw, after all the constant rocket attacks. You can rest assured that another such invasion will occur, and another, as long as Gaza is run by Islamist fanatics.

    You might want to tell the IDF how it avoids civilian casualties in areas where its enemies are among civilians (in fact, encouraging civilians to try to be killed). I'm sure they would listen.
 
 
 
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