Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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MatureStudent36
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#601
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#601
(Original post by Kaiser MacCleg)
I tend to agree with Fullofsurprises - I can't see another referendum being called in the immediate future if this one returns a "no" vote. The SNP would risk ridicule, obvious comparisons to Quebec and an even more firm rebuttal second time around. Two, three decades down the line - possibly.

That's democracy for you. Interesting how L'Quebec got a bit of a cold shoulder a few weeks back


Which are about as useful in justifying your claim as a reference to David Icke.

Personal observations are just that. Personal Observations. You can't ask me to ignore what I've seen over the past 15 years. As I'm not claiming in Aliens or anything else like that I'm struggling to see the reference of David Icke

Anyone have any thoughts on the implications of the Catalonian referendum for Scotland? They're both due in 2014, though I'm not sure which will be conducted first. Has the Scottish media covered the process towards the Catalonian referendum at all?
Personally I think it'll be a wake up call for the SNP Yes Supporters. The EU has made it very clear that they don't want it and the Catalonians have been told the same as the SNP when it comes to membership. Back of the queue, wait your turn, no opt outs etc etc etc. I think what will be even more worrying for the EU, especially the ECB is that it'll likely send Spain over the edge financially and risk contagion throughout the EuroZone. There has been some reporting that None Spanish Companys are waiting to step into the breech and pick up some extra business out of it.

There has been some reporting in Media, but not much. The Media only tends to cover it intermittently. The last I really saw of it was the mass rally iin the park a few months ago where there were quite a few Catalonians there trying to show a united front with the SNP. Equally though there were a lot of LGBT activists and CND Scotland, as well as quite a few wode painted supporters and a couple of Rangers Supporters trying to demonstrate.
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MatureStudent36
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#602
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#602
(Original post by Midlander)
On a different thread I asked someone whether they'd rather the £200m currently spent on maintaining the Royals would be better off spent on the NHS. They never did get round to answering it...
Then ask it again on that thread.
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Midlander
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#603
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#603
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Then ask it again on that thread.
I would if refusing to worship a Windsor on the basis of their surname didn't get negged on here.
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MatureStudent36
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#604
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#604
(Original post by Midlander)
I would if refusing to worship a Windsor on the basis of their surname didn't get negged on here.
Just negged you. Happy now?
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Midlander
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#605
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#605
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Just negged you. Happy now?
Very.



God Save the Queen.
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Red Richie
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#606
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#606
I don't really see the point tbh, the scots are going to be getting more power even if they don't vote for independence. Its probably only a matter of time before they take control of nearly all financial spending, leaving only military and foreign affairs power with westminster.
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Kaiser MacCleg
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#607
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#607
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Personal observations are just that. Personal Observations. You can't ask me to ignore what I've seen over the past 15 years. As I'm not claiming in Aliens or anything else like that I'm struggling to see the reference of David Icke
I'm not asking you to ignore your experiences. All I'm asking is that you do not make unfounded accusations based on nothing but anecdotes. An assurance that your personal experiences suggest that all nationalists are insular, not well travelled and easily led on does not even come close to fulfilling the burden of proof your claim carries.

David Icke is not relevant to this discussion and also a bit of a nutter. That's precisely why I brought him up - anecdotes from your personal life carry the same persuasive power as far as I'm concerned.

[B]Personally I think it'll be a wake up call for the SNP Yes Supporters. The EU has made it very clear that they don't want it and the Catalonians have been told the same as the SNP when it comes to membership. Back of the queue, wait your turn, no opt outs etc etc etc.
Have they? I'd like a reference.
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Nick100
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#608
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#608
(Original post by Midlander)
On a different thread I asked someone whether they'd rather the £200m currently spent on maintaining the Royals would be better off spent on the NHS. They never did get round to answering it...
Parliament has a deal with the Royal family which makes it more money than it costs them. In any case, £200 million is 1/3000th of the government's budget; it's pocket change to the Exchequer.
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Psyk
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#609
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#609
(Original post by tjf8)
It's going to happen anyway whether we like it or not (we the English, of course, will not get a say). There's nothing to stop the SNP repeatedly holding referenda until they're blue in the face. Although if they don't manage it in the year of the Commonwealth Games and the Ryder Cup both being held in Scotland then I'll be amazed.
Well there is something to stop them, they don't actually have the legal power to do it. The UK government has temporarily granted the Scottish government the power to hold this referendum. I doubt they would let them do it again every couple of years. I think even Salmond said that it's a "once in a generation" event, so even he is saying there wouldn't be another one for about 20 years or so should he lose. And of course that's assuming pro-independence parties stay in power in the Scottish government.
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MatureStudent36
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#610
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#610
(Original post by Nick100)
Parliament has a deal with the Royal family which makes it more money than it costs them. In any case, £200 million is 1/3000th of the government's budget; it's pocket change to the Exchequer.
Plus I'm assuming that it would cost a hell of a lot more to set up a Presidency. And let's not forget, if we went for that we may get Blair back
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MatureStudent36
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#611
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#611
(Original post by Psyk)
Well there is something to stop them, they don't actually have the legal power to do it. The UK government has temporarily granted the Scottish government the power to hold this referendum. I doubt they would let them do it again every couple of years. I think even Salmond said that it's a "once in a generation" event, so even he is saying there wouldn't be another one for about 20 years or so should he lose. And of course that's assuming pro-independence parties stay in power in the Scottish government.
Let democracy have her say, and her day
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Midlander
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#612
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#612
(Original post by Nick100)
Parliament has a deal with the Royal family which makes it more money than it costs them. In any case, £200 million is 1/3000th of the government's budget; it's pocket change to the Exchequer.
Pocket change to the Exchequer but not to a cash strapped organisation. My opposition to the monarchy is primarily ideological rather than financial, but the idea that a family is funded off the back of the taxpayer (or using land and property stolen from commoners long ago), is opposed in every quarter except for the Royals. What entitles them to scrounge more than someone else?
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Nick100
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#613
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#613
(Original post by Midlander)
Pocket change to the Exchequer but not to a cash strapped organisation. My opposition to the monarchy is primarily ideological rather than financial, but the idea that a family is funded off the back of the taxpayer (or using land and property stolen from commoners long ago), is opposed in every quarter except for the Royals. What entitles them to scrounge more than someone else?
It's pocket change to the NHS as well, being as it is 1/650th of their budget. And whether you have an ideological qualm with them or not, they make more money for Parliament than they cost and the SNP has no plans to make Scotland a republic anyway.
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Midlander
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#614
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#614
(Original post by Nick100)
It's pocket change to the NHS as well, being as it is 1/650th of their budget. And whether you have an ideological qualm with them or not, they make more money for Parliament than they cost and the SNP has no plans to make Scotland a republic anyway.
They are still propped up by taxpayers' money. The profit I assume you mean comes from the Crown Estate, which consists of land stolen from the peasants and commoners of yore by Edward III.


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Fullofsurprises
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#615
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#615
It's interesting how nearly all discussions about the political map of the UK end up going over the detail of medieval battles, charters, kings and old wars. Usually it ends up with either the Wars of the Roses or the English Civil War / War of the Three Kingdoms.

We are a very historical lot.
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MatureStudent36
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#616
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#616
(Original post by Red Richie)
I don't really see the point tbh, the scots are going to be getting more power even if they don't vote for independence. Its probably only a matter of time before they take control of nearly all financial spending, leaving only military and foreign affairs power with westminster.
Says who. I think that Greece has highlighted a problem with that. And equally, there's 65 Million people in the UK that something like that would affect? So the Devo Max/Independence Light option isn't going to happen without the whole of teh UK agreeing to it.

Salmonds dream of Undercutting everybody on Corporation tax just isn't going to happen. The knock on effects would be too great throughout the UK and to a certain extent Europe.
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MatureStudent36
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#617
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#617
(Original post by Midlander)
Just as Dave has refused to countenance an independent Scotland, Salmond has refused to discuss what will happen should he lose the defining moment of his political career.

The Scottish people will have resoundingly rejected his party's main objective; you'd surely think there'd be nowhere back for him. Equally, I wonder what Cameron would think of having the union break up under his tenure as the legacy he leaves.
Tricky one. The SNP respresents Scottish People. And to a certain extent that is reflected in the Holyrood elections. However, what seems to get forgotten about is that Scottish voters don't tend to vote the SNP into Westminster.

I think Salmonds going to have to go soon after a No vote, but I think you'll see the SNP akin to the Democratic Unionist Party in Northern Ireland. i.e. very tribal, but no real pull. After all, I'm still seeing no evidence of Westminster dancing a Scottish Jig yet, neither do expect them to.

Equally, I'm sure that as with any economic down turn people turn to fringe parties in the hope that they will sort out the mess. Did anybody thing Greece would be voting in Communists and Fascists into their Parliament? People loose trust in the main political parties, but that trust soon returns. After all, with the exception of the Green Party and BNP, no political party is greatly different.

The economies coming back up, and it'll be increasingly harder for fringe politicians to draw the same crowd. It's easy to get support when you can start blaming somebody else for their problems, but when those problems go away it'll get back to normal. Goodbye SNP, goodbye UKIP.

As I've stated before, my concern is that some parties play on differences. When you play on differences you create division, and when you create division you create problems for the future. To quote Ny Bevan. 'Why do I need a crystal ball when I can read a history book.' Look where division gets us. And it still doesn't get away from the fact that fundamentally, there's no difference between a Scotsman, Englishman, Welshman or Ulsterman. There's no mythical cultural divide as there's culteral differences amongst each and everyone of those groupings.

For me, Scotlands in a great position as it is. We have a level of Government that is closer to the people to make decisions on Education, Transport and Healthcare. We all have an equal say and we all have an equal share of the wealth. What's being promoted is 'we want more than everybosy else.' But if we get more, somebody else gets less. And I know of been shouted down for claiming the SNP are Insular, But I have friends and family all over the UK. I'd feel a bit sh*tty turning around shafting somebody else for personal gain at the same time benefiting some group of Politicians. I guess that's just me though
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Tycho
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#618
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#618
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I quoted the Daily record.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...-after-1485805

You've described it as a rag. SNP supporters seem to describe any Media report that is impartial, or takes a stand against their opinion as a rag.
The Daily Record is anything but impartial. Are you seriously suggesting otherwise? Tabloids are not considered quality newspapers, irrespective of which political angle you come from. They sensationalise stories, imply marginal or unique stories are widespread, and - frankly - promote the same ignorance that sees a rise of people who support extremist parties like the BNP.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
But why am I being called an 'English *******' in bars in Edinburgh? (I can tell the difference between Banter though so I'm not being overly sensitive)
Because some people are idiots. You'd certainly not be called any such thing by me. I have lots of English friends, and quite a few English relatives too. But for me this isn't about being anti-English. This is about trying to improve living conditions for people in Scotland (and England). I believe the best way to do that is to have more localised control over issues. Independence is a good start.
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Tycho
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(Original post by Psyk)
Well there is something to stop them, they don't actually have the legal power to do it. The UK government has temporarily granted the Scottish government the power to hold this referendum. I doubt they would let them do it again every couple of years. I think even Salmond said that it's a "once in a generation" event, so even he is saying there wouldn't be another one for about 20 years or so should he lose. And of course that's assuming pro-independence parties stay in power in the Scottish government.
Having the legal power to do it or not is actually not hugely relevant. It's like suggesting that the Prime Minister cannot go to war if the Queen doesn't approve of it. Clearly the PM has a mandate to do it as he was elected by the people, and the Queen's approval is merely a ceremonial ritual. The same applies to the Scottish government. No Westminster government is ever likely to deny a Scottish referendum on Indpendence if there is an undeniable mandate to hold one.

Clearly there won't (and shouldn't) be a referendum every time the SNP get elected. It's pretty inconceivable that if the Scottish people vote No in 2014 then there'd be another referendum within a decade. However, there is a clear argument for having one in another twenty years, if the SNP get elected having had another election pledge of holding a new referendum. Opinions change, as does the needs and aspirations of a country. What's right for Scotland now might not be right for Scotland in twenty years.
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Kaiser MacCleg
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#620
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#620
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
And I know of been shouted down for claiming the SNP are Insular, But I have friends and family all over the UK. I'd feel a bit sh*tty turning around shafting somebody else for personal gain at the same time benefiting some group of Politicians. I guess that's just me though
And what if being a part of the UK is putting individuals and communities in another area at a disadvantage?
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