TSR Christian Society (X-SOC) Episode IV: A New Hope Watch

Diety
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(Original post by IMakeSenseToNone)
Goodness, so I take it that you're a late start then?
Yep We move in for the last few days of September and freshers week is beginning of October.


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IMakeSenseToNone
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#602
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(Original post by Diety)
Yep We move in for the last few days of September and freshers week is beginning of October.
... That's cool Just think of all the things you can plan to do but not actually get around to in that time.


Right so I heard this story yesturday and i'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on it were. I believe this is Aristotle but I could be mistaken. Basically he was trying to find common ground with a slave from a foreign nation by asking him questions on what he believed so he could converse with him from a shared standpoint. The only thing they agreed on was the answer to this question, is something good because the gods love it or do the gods love it because it is good?

Thoughts? Bonus points if you can guess what their answer was as well.
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Diety
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(Original post by IMakeSenseToNone)
... That's cool Just think of all the things you can plan to do but not actually get around to in that time.
I know!

Right so I heard this story yesturday and i'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on it were. I believe this is Aristotle but I could be mistaken. Basically he was trying to find common ground with a slave from a foreign nation by asking him questions on what he believed so he could converse with him from a shared standpoint. The only thing they agreed on was the answer to this question, is something good because the gods love it or do the gods love it because it is good?

Thoughts? Bonus points if you can guess what their answer was as well.
Yes, heard this dilemma before, and spent some time looking at Christian answers to it; never heard the story though. By thoughts you mean what do we think the answer is?...
I would guess he picked the latter option because that seems more ancient greek philosophy-ish Not sure though


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Feefifofum
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(Original post by IMakeSenseToNone)
... That's cool Just think of all the things you can plan to do but not actually get around to in that time.


Right so I heard this story yesturday and i'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on it were. I believe this is Aristotle but I could be mistaken. Basically he was trying to find common ground with a slave from a foreign nation by asking him questions on what he believed so he could converse with him from a shared standpoint. The only thing they agreed on was the answer to this question, is something good because the gods love it or do the gods love it because it is good?

Thoughts? Bonus points if you can guess what their answer was as well.
That's from Plato, not Aristotle - it's the Euthypro Dilemma. The Euthyphro (one of the Platonic Dialogues) has Socrates in discussion with Euthyphro, who comes up with lots of different definitions of piety, each of which Socrates knocks down, git that he is. One of Euthyphro's definitions is that what is pious is that which is loved by the gods, but Socrates turns that around and it all gets horrendously complicated. :p:
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IMakeSenseToNone
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(Original post by Diety)

Yes, heard this dilemma before, and spent some time looking at Christian answers to it; never heard the story though. By thoughts you mean what do we think the answer is?...
I would guess he picked the latter option because that seems more ancient greek philosophy-ish Not sure though
Yush what you think it is <3 And you're right, they did go for the latter *grants cookies*. They do idealise the concept of virtues such as beauty, goodness etc as if they are some universal entity that can be contemplated as though it exists outside of the lesser, physical world. So it does make sense for the gods to value it as well, especially as they're more man-like and knowable and so have to atleast somewhat follow in our ideals and ways.

You can always tell when a Christian thinker is unfluenced by the Greeks ('cept maybe Plato as he exelled more in asking questions than giving answers) as they apply the universal as being the highest standard (ala Hegel on ethics) to which we are subservant although I guess the true Christian position as I see it would be that of the teleological suspension of the ethical for that of the individual's religious calling which would make the universal lesser. It's pretty wonderful reading people like Aquinas and seeing the battle between the universalness of Greek philosphy and the more individual focused Christian theology :yep:
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IMakeSenseToNone
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(Original post by Feefifofum)
That's from Plato, not Aristotle - it's the Euthypro Dilemma.
Darn my mistake, it's not really something you can google if you can't remember it's name Still, shows how crap I am on remembering who said what in greek thought.

The Euthyphro (one of the Platonic Dialogues) has Socrates in discussion with Euthyphro, who comes up with lots of different definitions of piety, each of which Socrates knocks down, git that he is.
:mmm: You know deep down the 'trolololol' song is playing in his head during all these conversations. I must have learnt the modified form that wiki calls "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" as it was in relation to Christian thinkers and my memory is shocking. Also turns out that's it's in a Jay-Z song, which is awesome :rofl:
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chickenonsteroids
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(Original post by IMakeSenseToNone)
x
Wouldn't it be easier for religious people to accept the first part of the dilemma and then argue that God is the perfect form of goodness meaning his commands aren't arbitrary and still perfect?
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IMakeSenseToNone
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(Original post by chickenonsteroids)
Wouldn't it be easier for religious people to accept the first part of the dilemma and then argue that God is the perfect form of goodness meaning his commands aren't arbitrary and still perfect?
I guess then you could say that it's a mixture of both, it's probably best if we used the "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" example as mine was the basic ramblings of a tired person.

I would certainly say yours in the case to some extent although the first statement of the revised statement implies that good exists outside of God so if all good things come from him, then the first statement of the dilemma has problems. Although if God sets in place what is good then possibly both statements work but only once the latter has been put in place... If that makes sense.
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Feefifofum
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(Original post by IMakeSenseToNone)
Darn my mistake, it's not really something you can google if you can't remember it's name Still, shows how crap I am on remembering who said what in greek thought.
Hehe no - and Euthyphro is a ***** to type even when you can remember it!

:mmm: You know deep down the 'trolololol' song is playing in his head during all these conversations. I must have learnt the modified form that wiki calls "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" as it was in relation to Christian thinkers and my memory is shocking. Also turns out that's it's in a Jay-Z song, which is awesome :rofl:
Socrates is the ultimate troll. I was never a fan of Greek philosophy, could you tell? :p: I'm a classicist so I've done some philosophy, but I leaned towards history wherever I could...

As for my answer - from a Christian perspective I'd say that it's definitely the case that whatever is morally good is so because God commands it. The Bible sets out all the right ways to live and so on, but also talks about people's consciences. Romans 2.14-15:

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

If we take this to refer to people's consciences, it implies that what we think of as morally right or good is that which God has already put into our hearts. That means that our judgement on these matters isn't really separate from God's will, but governed by it. That which we think is morally good is automatically that which God has put into our hearts to see as morally good. It's all God's decision, and our thoughts don't really matter at all.

Or something like that anyway :p:

EDIT: PS - τρολολολολολολ... :teehee:
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IMakeSenseToNone
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(Original post by Feefifofum)
Hehe no - and Euthyphro is a ***** to type even when you can remember it!
I was just like err 'Greek+God+good+love'. Fair to say none were really helpful :teehee: I got one about how slavery was a good thing though.

Socrates is the ultimate troll. I was never a fan of Greek philosophy, could you tell? :p: I'm a classicist so I've done some philosophy, but I leaned towards history wherever I could...
Yeah me too, although I don't mind Plato or the Stoics too much, but it's mostly interesting just to see how early Christian thinkers were trying to respond to it and how it still influences today's culture. Outside of that though I don't get anything from it :dontknow: I'd rather learn about Christian Existentialism or post-modernism :yep: (Just about to start looking into Derrida... Wish me luck :erm:)

As for my answer - from a Christian perspective I'd say that it's definitely the case that whatever is morally good is so because God commands it. The Bible sets out all the right ways to live and so on, but also talks about people's consciences. Romans 2.14-15:

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

If we take this to refer to people's consciences, it implies that what we think of as morally right or good is that which God has already put into our hearts. That means that our judgement on these matters isn't really separate from God's will, but governed by it. That which we think is morally good is automatically that which God has put into our hearts to see as morally good. It's all God's decision, and our thoughts don't really matter at all.

Or something like that anyway :p:
Ala Augustine's "Love God, and [then] do what you will" then? :^_^: (Akshully is it just 'Love' or 'love God' in the quote? Different sources say different things)

I guess it also fits in with the idea of the Christian being the 'humble servant' as our relation is with God not the universal ethical. It does beg the question though of the role of the ethical, if we are to be governed by God's will and conscience, is it even worth having church dogma on what is right and wrong as some people are called to suspend the ethical? Namely the example of Abraham and Isaac, to kill is wrong but yet God called for him to do it, therefore it was the right thing to do until He said to stop.

EDIT: PS - τρολολολολολολ... :teehee:
Show off I tried to counter with it in Japanese but alas it doesn't have 'tr' or 'l' sound so it doesn't really work xD The closest you get sounds like to-ru-ro-ro-ro-ro-ro as in japanese the 'r' is just like a mixture of 'd'/'r'/'l'. Yes it's as annoying as it sounds.
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WannaBeAuthor
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Hello people
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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(Original post by WannaBeAuthor)
Hello people
:wavey:
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(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
:wavey:
I was going to ask if your allowed to debate in the society forums, I'm new to TSR. I feel self conscious about debating now.
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(Original post by WannaBeAuthor)
I was going to ask if your allowed to debate in the society forums, I'm new to TSR. I feel self conscious about debating now.
You mean the religious society forums? Generally speaking we don't debate in here and certainly not with non-believers. X Soc at least is mainly light and fluffy, with the odd but perfectly friendly and respectful disagreements about things like gay marriage and faith v. works, etc.

If you want to ask a question but not debate as such, you can do that in 'Ask a Christian'. If you want to debate something, start a thread on it if there's not a recent existing thread on it :yes:
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(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
You mean the religious society forums? Generally speaking we don't debate in here and certainly not with non-believers. X Soc at least is mainly light and fluffy, with the odd but perfectly friendly and respectful disagreements about things like gay marriage and faith v. works, etc.

If you want to ask a question but not debate as such, you can do that in 'Ask a Christian'. If you want to debate something, start a thread on it if there's not a recent existing thread on it :yes:
Okay, thank you for being so helpful. Especially to a newbie.
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(Original post by WannaBeAuthor)
Okay, thank you for being so helpful. Especially to a newbie.
No problem!
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Diety
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That's a good video on the dilemma - only really necessary to watch until half way to get the picture, although the last ten mins are interesting. It's the response accepted by nearly all modern Christian philosophers. This video is actually a response to a criticism of the argument, but in it as well as countering the criticism, the argument itself is well explained. The guy in it is Dr William Lane Craig who philosophy students might know; he's a top Christian philosopher and apologist.

(Original post by WannaBeAuthor)
I was going to ask if your allowed to debate in the society forums, I'm new to TSR. I feel self conscious about debating now.
Welcome to the soc! feel free to introduce yourself. In reference to your question, debating is not permitted on Soc threads; they are for light discussion only. If you have a question you want to ask, you can be answered on the 'ask a Christian' thread, or if you want there is the 'does God exist' thread for debating that topic, or if it's a more specific issue you want to debate, create a new thread

EDIT: damn, TLG beat me to it

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greeneyedgirl
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(Original post by Diety)


That's a good video on the dilemma - only really necessary to watch until half way to get the picture, although the last ten mins are interesting. It's the response accepted by nearly all modern Christian philosophers. This video is actually a response to a criticism of the argument, but in it as well as countering the criticism, the argument itself is well explained. The guy in it is Dr William Lane Craig who philosophy students might know; he's a top Christian philosopher and apologist.



Welcome to the soc! feel free to introduce yourself. In reference to your question, debating is not permitted on Soc threads; they are for light discussion only. If you have a question you want to ask, you can be answered on the 'ask a Christian' thread, or if you want there is the 'does God exist' thread for debating that topic, or if it's a more specific issue you want to debate, create a new thread

EDIT: damn, TLG beat me to it

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I've seen WLC debate live, was great :yep:

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(Original post by greeneyedgirl)
I've seen WLC debate live, was great :yep:

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Awesome! So jealous!


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greeneyedgirl
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Awesome! So jealous!


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He was great, room was packed too which is great!

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