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The world is going to tear itself apart with Islam hate watch

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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Wrong. Islamophobia is someone who hates/fears Islam or Muslims

    Get the 'or' into your head. Islamophobia is not haters of Islam and Muslims, its haters of either of them.
    But a definition that contains two different concepts is meaningless.
    Disliking Islam is a fundamentally different concept to hating Muslims.
    I do one, I do not do the other.
    Your inability to identify and separate different concepts is your own problem, but I would suggest doing some work on it. You will find it quite useful at uni/McDonald's (delete where not applicable)
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    (Original post by DanGG)
    1. Racist feelings are NOT legitimised when you have a person in power! Where are you getting this from? The key word is that this is still a person - biologically the same as me and you, and in this particular case, Trump has no real power to legitimise anything. He is not the president. Is he actively trying to make racism legal? No is the answer there. You yourself say that he is doing this ''indirectly'', meaning that a) this is your interpretation of what he is trying to do b) you have no proof he is promoting anything racist and are just using his reputation for the gains of your argument.
    2. Sharia Law is not a meaningless term, as Muslims themselves use it to represent their way of life (usually more violent and prevalent in the Middle East)
    3. It would be useful to provide sources where you get your numbers from concerning membership. ISIS does not nearly have 250k members! The more frequently found number is 25k, which does not put it significantly higher than Hamas or Boko Haram. And in this case, numbers are not everything, since we are talking about their power of influence, which is not relative to the amount of members rather influential leaders and manipulators.
    4. You may deny Sharia Law's solidness, but you cannot deny its existence. Stoning is prevalent and common, and women have less rights - eg: not being able to drive, etc.
    5. How do you know that 1.6billion Muslims are non-violent? Where has this figure come from? If there are no rebellions against this aforementioned way of life, and the mass of people live in these countries where the law is indirectly enforced then I think your large figure will be significantly reduced. I also see minimal shock and condemnation by your 1.6billion peaceful Muslims speaking against Sharia Law and stoning on either the news, through protests, etc.
    6. I have so far heard no such cases happening in the UK: no rapings, no shootings, nothing! It is perhaps the other way around, where in France and Germany and other parts of the EU ( and America, even) the high amounts of refugees taken in this year and earlier have committed massacres and stabbings(I'm sure you know that these DO exist).
    Yes it does. If you have a massive authoritative figure saying its OK to blame other races for your problems, it makes the average racist more comfortable with holding and venting those feelings.

    Sharia law is meaningless because it varies hugely from country to country. Criticising sharia law like a scareword is equivalent to denouncing something as vague as 'law'.

    ISIS have between 50,000 and 250,000 members, from wikipedia which uses estimates by the CIA.

    1.6 billion Muslims live on this planet and I think its pretty implicit that almost all of them are non-violent. Its just a tiny fraction of them who are violent.

    Well you need to pay attention to the news more often then, we've had that poolside shooting by a native and so many other crimes out of the media spotlight committed every single day by our own people.
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    (Original post by Seelowe)
    Without religion they may plant bombs, but they'd be less inclined to. You can't just state hypotheticals as fact.

    ISIS wants a caliphate of all Muslims by force, either subscribe to Salafism or die. That's how they plan to achieve it, and that's what they've done to areas under control (unlike al-Nusra, who don't enforce their beliefs short term).

    The Koran doesn't forbid any of these because non-Muslims, infidels, kuffars etc. Don't count as humans according to Islamic belief. In fact, the Koran explicitly states that it is okay to cut off the hands of thiefs, behead non believers, and oppress women. Muhammad also had an 8 year old wife, yet Muslims are ordered to follow in his footsteps.

    Obviously, but the fact of the matter is there are plenty of disaffected young men, but seemingly only the Muslim one's murder civilians in the name of God.
    it is speculative nonsense that the Quran says these things such as non-Muslims 'not being humans'.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    it is speculative nonsense that the Quran says these things such as non-Muslims 'not being humans'.
    "Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve" - Quran 8:55

    Hardly "speculative nonsense". Unless you don't know what "speculative", or "nonsense" mean.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    "Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve" - Quran 8:55

    Hardly "speculative nonsense". Unless you don't know what "speculative", or "nonsense" mean.
    I feel like there is just no point in arguing with this guy anymore. Not only do I not have the time, but it's just not worth it. His/her deluded mindset is fixed and cannot be changed. Seriously - I could go on and make another reply but what I've gathered from the last 30 pages is that the naivety is too strong on this one.

    PS: you argue well though +1
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    (Original post by DanGG)
    I feel like there is just no point in arguing with this guy anymore. Not only do I not have the time, but it's just not worth it. His/her deluded mindset is fixed and cannot be changed. Seriously - I could go on and make another reply but what I've gathered from the last 30 pages is that the naivety is too strong on this one.

    PS: you argue well though +1
    It's like a drug to me.
    I like to think of myself as the patient and benevolent teacher, and people like alevelstress as the troubled and unresponsive street kid in one of those heartwarming and life-affirming school-based movies. Can't decide if I teach poetry or dance though. Think I'll let my moves decide.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    it is speculative nonsense that the Quran says these things such as non-Muslims 'not being humans'.
    I think you've blocked QE2 so you won't see his post, but he provided Quran 8:55 where disbelievers are called the vilest of animals.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    it is speculative nonsense that the Quran says these things such as non-Muslims 'not being humans'.
    The "speculative nonsense" is yours, as has been demonstrated by another poster with a direct quote.

    Are you going to have the intellectual honesty to admit your ignorance? All you are doing is making a bigger and bigger fool of yourself.

    You have no credibility, none. Every argument you have made has been ripped to shreds.

    It is like watching a sheep getting torn apart by a wolf.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    The "speculative nonsense" is yours, as has been demonstrated by another poster with a direct quote.

    Are you going to have the intellectual honesty to admit your ignorance? All you are doing is making a bigger and bigger fool of yourself.

    You have no credibility, none. Every argument you have made has been ripped to shreds.

    It is like watching a sheep getting torn apart by a wolf.
    Our minds can concoct all sorts of scenarios when we don't want to believe something.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Our minds can concoct all sorts of scenarios when we don't want to believe something.
    Yours certainly seems to.

    It is called cognitive dissonance.

    You believe that there is no link between the Islamic faith and aggressive military conquest. You even think that it is explicitly forbidden in the Quran.

    Someone provides you with a quote proving you wrong.

    You believe that God (as quoted in the Quran) does not describe non believers as animals.

    Someone provides you with a quote proving you wrong..

    How does your mind concoct a scenario to cope with this?
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    (Original post by generallee)
    Yours certainly seems to.

    It is called cognitive dissonance.

    You believe that there is no link between the Islamic faith and aggressive military conquest. You even think that it is explicitly forbidden in the Quran.

    Someone provides you with a quote proving you wrong.

    You believe that God (as quoted in the Quran) does not describe non believers as animals.

    Someone provides you with a quote proving you wrong..

    How does your mind concoct a scenario to cope with this?
    Wrong.

    I believe Islam is a factor, just not the factor worth criticising relentlessly to death.

    Given that you clearly don't read any of my posts and just like to attack me because of my non-hateful interpretation of the problem. Go away.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    Yours certainly seems to.

    It is called cognitive dissonance.

    You believe that there is no link between the Islamic faith and aggressive military conquest. You even think that it is explicitly forbidden in the Quran.

    Someone provides you with a quote proving you wrong.

    You believe that God (as quoted in the Quran) does not describe non believers as animals.

    Someone provides you with a quote proving you wrong..

    How does your mind concoct a scenario to cope with this?
    I think that we are witnessing the consequences of too much a levels stress(s)
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    I think that we are witnessing the consequences of too much a levels stress(s)
    Could be the case. The thread's author comes across as...:albertein:
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    it is speculative nonsense that the Quran says these things such as non-Muslims 'not being humans'.
    Sorry, it's fact. Anyway, we're not going to agree so I shan't be responding anymore.
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    (Original post by string56)
    Could be the case. The thread's author comes across as...:albertein:
    (Original post by mariachi)
    I think that we are witnessing the consequences of too much a levels stress(s)



    I got into the university I wanted so the stress factor which existed from May to 18th August is removed, my post since are not affected by it.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Yes it does. If you have a massive authoritative figure saying its OK to blame other races for your problems, it makes the average racist more comfortable with holding and venting those feelings.

    Sharia law is meaningless because it varies hugely from country to country. Criticising sharia law like a scareword is equivalent to denouncing something as vague as 'law'.

    ISIS have between 50,000 and 250,000 members, from wikipedia which uses estimates by the CIA.

    1.6 billion Muslims live on this planet and I think its pretty implicit that almost all of them are non-violent. Its just a tiny fraction of them who are violent.

    Well you need to pay attention to the news more often then, we've had that poolside shooting by a native and so many other crimes out of the media spotlight committed every single day by our own people.
    Here we go again with the 1.6 billion factoid... This means pretty much nothing. If anything, it proves most Muslims don't carry out violent acts, but it says nothing of those who believe in Sharia law and the like...

    If Islam is a religion of peace, then why is it the only one that consistently produces religiously-motivated terrorist attacks each and every day of the year? Why are tens of thousands of people willing and able to cut off an innocent person’s head or fly a plane full of passengers into an office building while screaming praises to Allah? Where’s the outrage among other Muslims when this happens… and why do they get more worked up over cartoons and hijab slights?Rather than trying to answer a question with a question, let's just say that the reason why most Muslims don't kill is that, regardless of what Islam may or may not teach, it's wrong to kill over religion. Most people know deep down that if God wanted people dead for not believing in him, then he's perfectly capable of doing the job himself.Here's a similar question with identical logic to the "If the Quran taught violence then all Muslims would be violent" argument:
    "If the Quran taught that a thief's hand should be cut off, then all Muslims would cut off hands."
    We can all agree that very few Muslims cut off hands and that a majority (perhaps) believe it is wrong to do so. If the logic were sound, then this would be proof that the Quran does not say to cut off hands.But the Quran does say this... quite clearly:

    Cut off the hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. 5:38This is also the example set by Muhammad according to the Hadith (Bukhari 81:792). Yet, the vast majority of Muslims do not do this.

    Estimates average around 7% of the worlds Islamic population are engaged in some active form of terror activity, in some sort of active support, planning or implementing mode. 7% seems like a relatively small proportion. However, assuming a moderate estimate of 1.5 billion Muslims, even 5% would be what? 5% of 1.5 billion = "only" 75 million (75,000,000) are actvely involved in some phase of violent Jihad. Surveys have shown that an average of 25% of the Islamic population supports or condone some form of violent jihad. And these are just the ones who admit to it. 25% of 1.5 billion = "only" 375 million (375,000,000) (SOURCE: http://www.pewglobal.org/2006/05/23/...-muslim-world/)

    Again, I can't be bothered, quite frankly, to continue the conversation. Neither of us will convince the other so it's a pointless exercise to debate this.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    The world is going to tear itself apart with Islam hate
    Maybe you can start by dealing with all the Muslims tearing each other apart, suicide bombing each others mosques and beheading each other, simply because they are not Shi'a/Sunni (delete as appropriate)

    Unfortunately it appears you are well indoctrinated in the victimhood mindset that posits that Islam's biggest problem is the fact that some people in the West don't like them, rather than the actual, widespread slaughter of Muslims, by Muslims, in "Muslim lands"
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    (Original post by Seelowe)
    Here we go again with the 1.6 billion factoid... This means pretty much nothing. If anything, it proves most Muslims don't carry out violent acts, but it says nothing of those who believe in Sharia law and the like...

    If Islam is a religion of peace, then why is it the only one that consistently produces religiously-motivated terrorist attacks each and every day of the year? Why are tens of thousands of people willing and able to cut off an innocent person’s head or fly a plane full of passengers into an office building while screaming praises to Allah? Where’s the outrage among other Muslims when this happens… and why do they get more worked up over cartoons and hijab slights?Rather than trying to answer a question with a question, let's just say that the reason why most Muslims don't kill is that, regardless of what Islam may or may not teach, it's wrong to kill over religion. Most people know deep down that if God wanted people dead for not believing in him, then he's perfectly capable of doing the job himself.Here's a similar question with identical logic to the "If the Quran taught violence then all Muslims would be violent" argument:
    "If the Quran taught that a thief's hand should be cut off, then all Muslims would cut off hands."
    We can all agree that very few Muslims cut off hands and that a majority (perhaps) believe it is wrong to do so. If the logic were sound, then this would be proof that the Quran does not say to cut off hands.But the Quran does say this... quite clearly:

    Cut off the hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. 5:38This is also the example set by Muhammad according to the Hadith (Bukhari 81:792). Yet, the vast majority of Muslims do not do this.

    Estimates average around 7% of the worlds Islamic population are engaged in some active form of terror activity, in some sort of active support, planning or implementing mode. 7% seems like a relatively small proportion. However, assuming a moderate estimate of 1.5 billion Muslims, even 5% would be what? 5% of 1.5 billion = "only" 75 million (75,000,000) are actvely involved in some phase of violent Jihad. Surveys have shown that an average of 25% of the Islamic population supports or condone some form of violent jihad. And these are just the ones who admit to it. 25% of 1.5 billion = "only" 375 million (375,000,000) (SOURCE: http://www.pewglobal.org/2006/05/23/...-muslim-world/)

    Again, I can't be bothered, quite frankly, to continue the conversation. Neither of us will convince the other so it's a pointless exercise to debate this.
    You people seem to have a massive problem with people *believing xyz*. Well guess what, these Muslims in these countries were raised in their society to believe these things, their families believe these things, its their culture. Having a problem with what other people believe in other cultures and saying its "backwards" is offensive and stupid, especially when those who have successfully integrated with western society quite clearly put those beliefs behind them.

    If you actually have a problem with people believing something, you are essentially close to advocating for an Orwellian thought-police state, a form of society FAR worse than the type of society purported by the very people you're trying to incriminate. People believing X is not a problem, and it shouldn't be when we live in a democratic society with so many freedoms. The problem is when people are willing to act on belief X which is a danger to our society as well.

    I never said Islam was a religion of peace, but the community of Muslims are majorly peaceful people. And to answer your question about why most terrorists are Muslims nowadays, its because Islam is in the crosshairs of bigotry, and also it is right at the heart of the conflict in the Middle East. No conflict means that fewer terrorist groups would exist, because a united country with no civil war would be able to stamp out Islamic terrorists much more easily. Instead we have a proxy, 5-way conflict with a brutal regime and equally brutal terrorists/militants.

    Almost all of the terrorism we see nowadays derives from the west's stance on this conflict, and our past involvement in similar things, its not some Islamic people suddenly thinking our society needs bombing because of the difference in culture, its because of our support for faction X in this massively complex conflict, or because of our action/inaction towards eliminating faction Y.

    You can keep on perpetually criticising parts of a holy book which was written 1500 years ago for a different type of society - but the fact that the vast majority of Muslims ignore its violence means that the problem is PEOPLE. The problem is terrorists exploiting the violence in the Quran to suit their needs. Do you seriously think that these terrorists are doing their evils because of the Quran? Its quite obvious that they have specific political/territorial aims, and they are not motivated by their religion.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Hating the religion causes more problems, it alienates the malleable members of the community, which segregates them and essentially makes them more likely to sympathise with radical ideas.
    In other words, don't point out their religion is garbage or they'll get angry and bomb us. And they wonder why we prefer Sikhs, Hindus and Jews...

    Islam does say barbaric things, but going around persecuting ordinary Muslims
    Who is actually persecuting Muslims? No Western government, for sure. It's so laughable that Muslims extrapolate from a few isolated incidents to claim that somehow they are being treated as second-class citizens and are being persecuted. Unfortunately, the victim mindset is very strong in Islam; it's how they justify terrorist attacks to attack other religions/ethnicities in regions where they live together (Kashmir, Palestine, South Thailand)
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    I got into the university I wanted so the stress factor which existed from May to 18th August is removed, my post since are not affected by it.
    well, I was just trying to find an excuse for your posts' content ...
 
 
 
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