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    (Original post by Zürich)
    So what, you think the most widely quoted player valuation source is somehow bias towards Jack Wilshere and against Thiago?

    If you honestly dont think JW is in the top 5 of young midfielders then you honestly need to forget everything you think you know about football and start all over again. That's just crazy.
    No, I think trying to judge how much a player is worth these days is crazy. Transfer values are far too variable to count on. Nothing about bias.

    Thiago, Gundogan, Kroos, Isco and Gotze are all much more consistent, influential and have all (except Isco) played to a much higher level than Wilshere. And they dont spend a year and a half on the treatment table. :rolleyes:

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    (Original post by glousck)
    It's not impossible for Liverpool to get top 4 next season of course, just very unlikely. Chelsea, City & United it seems would be impossible to drop out of the top 4, it would be a huge upset unless any of them had to play a lot of extra cup games and won the CL like Chelsea. Spurs, I won't lie, unless Arsenal strengthen then with their current team they could be in for a shout for 4th. If Spurs sell Bale they could still come 5th though imo. Spurs without Bale > Liverpool without Suarez. The Bale and Suarez sagas will be key to who get champions league next season and who doesn't. I think Everton peaked last seasons although they still have a good team to come 5th or 6th so who knows.

    In your opinion, how do you think the top 6 will look by the end of the season? My opinion:

    1. City
    2. Chelsea.
    3. United
    4. Arsenal
    5. Spurs
    6. Liverpool

    I think Arsenal will challenge for the title at one point or another for a couple of months, and the points gap won't be so big, but I just can't see any of City/Chelsea/United coming 4th or lower. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong but I always try to be realistic with predictions.
    I agree with Bale being more important to Spurs than Suarez at Liverpool mainly because Liverpool looked generally good anyway without Suarez (not to say his gamewinning abilities will be a big loss), and Spurs don't without Bale.

    Very unpredictable, i would agree with United 3rd and Chelsea/City for title. It should be one of the most exciting seasons for a few years what with managerial changes.

    I would say Arsenal most likely to get 4th, but only if they can improve really. Spurs have strengthened and if they keep Bale and get a new striker (not difficult to improve) they look pretty good, pretty priddy good. History is on Arsenal's side in terms of getting 4th but you really need a top striker (a la Suarez, Rooney, possibly Yilmaz?), plus a quality DM (not Fellaini) otherwise it's going to be another tense end of season scrap getting circa 70 points. Not strengthening with Spurs keeping Bale would put Spurs in pole, but i wouldn't expect that.

    Intrigued to see how Martinez does at Everton, think he'll take a bit of time to get his ideas across and can't see them realistically challenging for a top 4 spot. So yeah realistically 3 teams going for 4th is what you would expect at this stage. I'd expect Liverpool to get 65-71 points, Spurs 67-74, Arsenal 68-77. The top 3 should be 75+ otherwise they will be underperforming massively. Tbh it's pretty hard to accurately predict anything before the season has started, with the transfer window open, but you would expect Arsenal and Spurs to strengthen moreso than Liverpool now before the window closes due to Liverpool getting more of their business done early. If the squads stayed the same now i would put it a lot closer again with very little in it.
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    (Original post by Zürich)
    Toni Kroos, Gundogan, Wilshere, Isco, Oscar off the top of my head have all performed at a higher level on a more consistent basis. Then youve got the likes of Illarramendi who've done as well and guys like Draxler who are years younger and better than Thiago was at their age.
    I would disagree with just about every single one of those being better than Thiago especially oscar, isco and wilshire but i will accept that he hasn't played consistently so I guess you have a point, I reckon he will prove himself this season though especially in the german league that he is far superior to the likess of kroos and gundogan
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    (Original post by yaboy)
    I would disagree with just about every single one of those being better than Thiago especially oscar, isco and wilshire but i will accept that he hasn't played consistently so I guess you have a point, I reckon he will prove himself this season though especially in the german league that he is far superior to the likess of kroos and gundogan
    Thiago is a long long way off the levels of Kroos/Gundogan. The difference between Gundogan and Thiago last night was huge for example, one is already a class player and the other is nothing but potential.

    Thiago is being hyped up because of the Barca fetish many seem to have. He's done **** all in his career compared to the others.
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    (Original post by Zürich)
    Thiago is a long long way off the levels of Kroos/Gundogan.

    Thiago is being hyped up because of the Barca fetish many seem to have. He's done **** all in his career compared to the others.
    So you honestly think based purely on ability Thiago is below Kroos/Gundogan?

    forget about how many games they played im talking about footballing ability alone
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    I think Thiago is easily as talented as those mentioned difference is he hasn't managed to get a consistent amount of games and well none of those youngsters would have either in Barcelona's midfield.
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    His development has certainly stagnated having been at Barca (not many would get regular gametime in that midfield) but the fact still stands that he is one of the most promising young midfielders about. The Under-21 Euro's was a prime example. He bossed every single game and outshone players like Illaramendi, Verratti, Insigne, Isco and Holtby among others.
    Wrt Wilshere, I'd certainly put him in that bracket with Thiago though. Others I'd say are among that level would be Gotze, Kroos, Pogba, Isco.
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    We can't judge Thiagos ability, he hasn't had enough time at the top level.

    Players like JW, Gundogan and Gotze have played in more big games.
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    (Original post by CB91)
    Thiago, Gundogan, Kroos, Isco and Gotze are all much more consistent, influential and have all (except Isco) played to a much higher level than Wilshere. And they dont spend a year and a half on the treatment table. :rolleyes:
    Injuries aside, Wilshere is as consistent as the players you've mentioned. Furthermore, he plays in a considerably better league than any of his counterparts.

    He is as influential for Arsenal as Gundogan is for Dortmund, I agree with you there, but remains considerably more influential to Arsenal than Gotze, Kroos or Thiago are to Bayern and Isco is to Real. Three of the four have just moved to their new clubs, whilst Wilshere's been at Arsenal since 2001. It's an open and shut case.
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    (Original post by Stalin)
    Injuries aside, Wilshere is as consistent as the players you've mentioned. Furthermore, he plays in a considerably better league than any of his counterparts.

    He is as influential for Arsenal as Gundogan is for Dortmund, I agree with you there, but remains considerably more influential to Arsenal than Gotze, Kroos or Thiago are to Bayern and Isco is to Real. Three of the four have just moved to their new clubs, whilst Wilshere's been at Arsenal since 2001. It's an open and shut case.
    Considerably better in your opinion :rolleyes:

    What kind of a point is that? If Goetze or any of the others played at Arsenal it be the same case.

    Put Wilshere, Veratti, Pogba, isco in the same situation as Thiago and they wouldn't be cracking the Barcelos line up either.
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    (Original post by Stalin)
    Injuries aside, Wilshere is as consistent as the players you've mentioned. Furthermore, he plays in a considerably better league than any of his counterparts.

    He is as influential for Arsenal as Gundogan is for Dortmund, I agree with you there, but remains considerably more influential to Arsenal than Gotze, Kroos or Thiago are to Bayern and Isco is to Real. Three of the four have just moved to their new clubs, whilst Wilshere's been at Arsenal since 2001. It's an open and shut case.
    put jack wilshere in the Bayern team and it all likeliness he would be overshadowed by everyone else, he is influential for us because we are nowhere near as good as bayern so that point seems a little invalid.

    Edit: How is the Premier league considerably better than the bundesliga???
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    (Original post by yaboy)
    put jack wilshere in the Bayern team and it all likeliness he would be overshadowed by everyone else, he is influential for us because we are nowhere near as good as bayern so that point seems a little invalid.
    Wilshere didnt look out of place against Kroos/Schwieini/Martinez in the CL this season nor against Iniesta/Xavi/Busquets 2 years back...

    Bayern/BVB are better than any English teams atm but further down the league Leverkusen<Chelsea, Schalke<Arsenal, Freiberg<Spurs, Hamburg<Everton etc etc.

    The top German players play only 1 other quality team whereas Wilshere plays about 7 teams who would push for CL qualification in the Bundesliga.
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    (Original post by Gob Bluth)
    I agree with Bale being more important to Spurs than Suarez at Liverpool mainly because Liverpool looked generally good anyway without Suarez (not to say his gamewinning abilities will be a big loss), and Spurs don't without Bale.

    Very unpredictable, i would agree with United 3rd and Chelsea/City for title. It should be one of the most exciting seasons for a few years what with managerial changes.

    I would say Arsenal most likely to get 4th, but only if they can improve really. Spurs have strengthened and if they keep Bale and get a new striker (not difficult to improve) they look pretty good, pretty priddy good. History is on Arsenal's side in terms of getting 4th but you really need a top striker (a la Suarez, Rooney, possibly Yilmaz?), plus a quality DM (not Fellaini) otherwise it's going to be another tense end of season scrap getting circa 70 points. Not strengthening with Spurs keeping Bale would put Spurs in pole, but i wouldn't expect that.

    Intrigued to see how Martinez does at Everton, think he'll take a bit of time to get his ideas across and can't see them realistically challenging for a top 4 spot. So yeah realistically 3 teams going for 4th is what you would expect at this stage. I'd expect Liverpool to get 65-71 points, Spurs 67-74, Arsenal 68-77. The top 3 should be 75+ otherwise they will be underperforming massively. Tbh it's pretty hard to accurately predict anything before the season has started, with the transfer window open, but you would expect Arsenal and Spurs to strengthen moreso than Liverpool now before the window closes due to Liverpool getting more of their business done early. If the squads stayed the same now i would put it a lot closer again with very little in it.
    When you look at all the big names that City have attacking-wise then if they get anything less than 2nd it's going to be a massive shock, in my opinion. For jovetic, Negredo, Aguero, etc to all fail to perform would be surprising, very surprising. They still have people like Barry and Milner who manage to get on to their team sheet most weeks though so who knows. If United came 3rd I don't know why any sensible fan would be too harsh on Moyes, anyone who can't see this is the toughest job to take over from is an idiot. This season it's more important for him to gain the respect and loyalty of the team whilst implementing a certain style of play that makes people think "That's not Fergies team, that's Moyes' team". He needs to learn how to get the best out of players - that's something that he can do in my eyes, he's done it with many at Everton in the past. He needs to learn about managing the personalities of the squad and also managing fitness as he's not used to managing a team that plays CL games (apart from one time) on top of PL + cup games. For me, his most interesting challenge will be how he reacts to comments about him by other managers - Fergie, Mourinho, Wenger all were good at not getting pissed off or showing their cards too much when they were provoked so I wonder how Moyes will do.

    I hope Chelsea stick with Lukaku but he's probably going out on loan. It would be great to see him thrown in as the main striker from a young age to get used to the pressure, clearly he's going to be incredible in the future and I would love to see him get used to the team around him as early as this season.

    If Arsenal get Suarez, L.Bender and Williams as 4th choice CB (+maybe Bernard?) then they have an outside shot. Take into consideration how good our defence is and that Bac has looked brilliant so far in pre season and on paper we have a very good team then. Cazorla and Suarez in the same team would provide exceptionally entertaining football, that's undeniable.

    I hope Martinez does well at Everton, he's done well to get Deofoleu on a season loan. I can't see him having any problems gaining the respect of the dressing room there.
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    (Original post by Zürich)
    Wilshere didnt look out of place against Kroos/Schwieini/Martinez in the CL this season nor against Iniesta/Xavi/Busquets 2 years back...
    I meant how influential he would be if he was in the bayern team not when he plays against them, plus wilshere never played well against bayern so I have no idea where you came up with that.
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    (Original post by yaboy)
    I meant how influential he would be if he was in the bayern team not when he plays against them, plus wilshere never played well against bayern so I have no idea where you came up with that.
    He wasnt at his best but in the 2nd half he was probably the most influential player on the pitch, look up the Guardian ratings for the game or something.
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    (Original post by yaboy)
    put jack wilshere in the Bayern team and it all likeliness he would be overshadowed by everyone else, he is influential for us because we are nowhere near as good as bayern so that point seems a little invalid.

    Edit: How is the Premier league considerably better than the bundesliga???
    That is completely rubbish, it is much easier to play well with great team mates.
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    (Original post by KD35)
    That is completely rubbish, it is much easier to play well with great team mates.
    Im talking about the influence not whether they play well or not, Bale would not have the same influence he is having at Spurs as he would if he went madrid because Ronaldo is there. Does not mean Bale won't play well just saying he won't be as influential at madrid as he would at tottenham where they were considered a one man team
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    (Original post by KD35)
    That is completely rubbish, it is much easier to play well with great team mates.
    Tell that to the numerous flops. Besides he wouldn't see they wouldn't see the field like Thiago faced.
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    (Original post by Stalin)
    Injuries aside, Wilshere is as consistent as the players you've mentioned. Furthermore, he plays in a considerably better league than any of his counterparts.

    He is as influential for Arsenal as Gundogan is for Dortmund, I agree with you there, but remains considerably more influential to Arsenal than Gotze, Kroos or Thiago are to Bayern and Isco is to Real. Three of the four have just moved to their new clubs, whilst Wilshere's been at Arsenal since 2001. It's an open and shut case.
    Considerably better league? Lmao. The PL is far, far behind La Liga and the Bundesliga.

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    (Original post by glousck)
    When you look at all the big names that City have attacking-wise then if they get anything less than 2nd it's going to be a massive shock, in my opinion. For jovetic, Negredo, Aguero, etc to all fail to perform would be surprising, very surprising. They still have people like Barry and Milner who manage to get on to their team sheet most weeks though so who knows. If United came 3rd I don't know why any sensible fan would be too harsh on Moyes, anyone who can't see this is the toughest job to take over from is an idiot. This season it's more important for him to gain the respect and loyalty of the team whilst implementing a certain style of play that makes people think "That's not Fergies team, that's Moyes' team". He needs to learn how to get the best out of players - that's something that he can do in my eyes, he's done it with many at Everton in the past. He needs to learn about managing the personalities of the squad and also managing fitness as he's not used to managing a team that plays CL games (apart from one time) on top of PL + cup games. For me, his most interesting challenge will be how he reacts to comments about him by other managers - Fergie, Mourinho, Wenger all were good at not getting pissed off or showing their cards too much when they were provoked so I wonder how Moyes will do.

    I hope Chelsea stick with Lukaku but he's probably going out on loan. It would be great to see him thrown in as the main striker from a young age to get used to the pressure, clearly he's going to be incredible in the future and I would love to see him get used to the team around him as early as this season.

    If Arsenal get Suarez, L.Bender and Williams as 4th choice CB (+maybe Bernard?) then they have an outside shot. Take into consideration how good our defence is and that Bac has looked brilliant so far in pre season and on paper we have a very good team then. Cazorla and Suarez in the same team would provide exceptionally entertaining football, that's undeniable.

    I hope Martinez does well at Everton, he's done well to get Deofoleu on a season loan. I can't see him having any problems gaining the respect of the dressing room there.
    Can you seriously see that happening?
 
 
 
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