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    (Original post by LordRathbone)
    I think most Israeli's are from Europe..
    Really? 100% of 'palestinians' are from Arabia.

    Israel is not geographically in Arabia.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    How would you deal with Hamas if you were in the position of the Israeli government?


    Just as there is a wide range of opinions in Israel on how to deal with Hamas - there is in Gaza on how to deal with Israel. Hamas has in the past accepted the idea of a two-state solution, and I think they still do. I would promise Hamas direct peace talks focussing on defining Israel's borders.

    In reality this would be political suicide for any Israeli President to set up doing. Israel is meant to grow.
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Just as there is a wide range of opinions in Israel on how to deal with Hamas - there is in Gaza on how to deal with Israel. Hamas has in the past accepted the idea of a two-state solution, and I think they still do. I would promise Hamas direct peace talks focussing on defining Israel's borders.

    In reality this would be political suicide for any Israeli President to set up doing. Israel is meant to grow.
    It's in the Hamas covenant to destroy Israel and set up an Islamic state in its place. Please show me where Hamas agreed to a two-state solution, because it would be a complete repudiation of their founding principle.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Show me a Gazan who's died from lack of water?

    Don't bother, you can't.

    Images of Gaza some don't see, or want to see










    A waterpark -This was destroyed by Hamas



















    Now THIS is living tough - India's slums






    Inconvenient pictures for you, no doubt.




    Tell me which countries don't have such problems?

    The UK's Police force was found to be "institutionally racist"

    America's black prison population?

    Arabs Israelis are becoming more and more assimilated. Israel is still a young country and this takes time.

    There are Arabs who are supreme court judges in Israel. Arabs who head whole Hospital departments.

    The ex-prime minister of Israel was found guilty of accepting a bribe and was sentenced by an Arab judge.
    Deprivation is deprivation, being deprived of something is enough to show that they are in a very poor state. Here's some statistics for you:

    - In Gaza, a vast 70 percent of the population is refugees, and roughly a fifth of these people live in refugee camps.

    - The UNOCHA reports that since 2006 Gaza has suffered from chronic electricity shortages, following an escalated confrontation with Israel, which led to the destruction of all six transformers at the Gaza Power Plant (GPP)


    And yes you're right, most countries have those problems but this report was a reference to Gideon123's claim that Palestinians in Israel are living in peace, clearly this report shows that they are not as they're not getting their basic human right of equality and many more.


    What about these pictures? Are they living a average life? Point is that although there might be facilities for them but the constant bombings and attacks on Palestine has ruined the country and taking innocent lives, clearly which also increases deprivation and poverty.

    This is the state of Palestinians living in the refugee camps. Their fault? Nothing but they're Palestine. Have a look at the innocent faces of these young children, don't you feel sympathy for them? They're not aware of why they are living under such bad conditions, why they're living as refugees? Isn't this neglection of human rights? Look at the elderly, they're poor and so old but what are they getting? Nothing but such a bad life, full of deprivation and on top of that their people are under threat everyday, every second. C'mon this cannot be justified! You don't have to be a Muslim to feel their pain, there's something called humanity!

    http://static0.demotix.com/sites/def...aza-_33184.jpg

    http://static3.demotix.com/sites/def...aza-_33185.jpg

    http://static1.demotix.com/sites/def...aza-_33186.jpg

    http://static4.demotix.com/sites/def...aza-_33194.jpg
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    (Original post by Maliha Ahmed)
    Deprivation is deprivation, being deprived of something is enough to show that they are in a very poor state. Here's some statistics for you:

    - In Gaza, a vast 70 percent of the population is refugees, and roughly a fifth of these people live in refugee camps.

    - The UNOCHA reports that since 2006 Gaza has suffered from chronic electricity shortages, following an escalated confrontation with Israel, which led to the destruction of all six transformers at the Gaza Power Plant (GPP)


    And yes you're right, most countries have those problems but this report was a reference to Gideon123's claim that Palestinians in Israel are living in peace, clearly this report shows that they are not as they're not getting their basic human right of equality and many more.


    What about these pictures? Are they living a average life? Point is that although there might be facilities for them but the constant bombings and attacks on Palestine has ruined the country and taking innocent lives, clearly which also increases deprivation and poverty.

    This is the state of Palestinians living in the refugee camps. Their fault? Nothing but they're Palestine. Have a look at the innocent faces of these young children, don't you feel sympathy for them? They're not aware of why they are living under such bad conditions, why they're living as refugees? Isn't this neglection of human rights? Look at the elderly, they're poor and so old but what are they getting? Nothing but such a bad life, full of deprivation and on top of that their people are under threat everyday, every second. C'mon this cannot be justified! You don't have to be a Muslim to feel their pain, there's something called humanity!
    ]
    There's feeling sorry for people and there's playing the blame game.

    The problem with people like you is that you feel sorry for them, but blame Israel.

    When we can see that 'palestinian' behaviour towards Israel and Egypt over the years, has created their problems and made their situation worse.

    Most Gazans speak with an Egyptian dialect. One of the most common family names in Gaza is "Al-Masri" - which means "The Egyptian".

    Yet even their own brothers have had enough with them.

    They should be thankful that despite lobbing 1,400 rockets into their neighbour who provides them with water and fuel, the taps haven't been turned off.

    Unlike when Russia turned off the gas to Ukraine.


    A good start would be to stop their incessant rocket attacks and recognise Israel.
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    Watch 5:10 onwards:

    Israeli Politician Calls For Genocide Of Palestinians

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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    Watch 5:10 onwards:

    Israeli Politician Calls For Genocide Of Palestinians

    Haha a Jewish Hitler. That's exactly what this nasty female hypocrite is.
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    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...tml?1405690372

    NEW YORK -- CNN has removed correspondent Diana Magnay from covering the Israeli-Palestinian conflict after she tweeted that Israelis who were cheering the bombing of Gaza, and who had allegedly threatened her, were “scum.”

    “After being threatened and harassed before and during a liveshot, Diana reacted angrily on Twitter,” a CNN spokeswoman said in a statement to The Huffington Post.

    “She deeply regrets the language used, which was aimed directly at those who had been targeting our crew," the spokeswoman continued. "She certainly meant no offense to anyone beyond that group, and she and CNN apologize for any offense that may have been taken.”

    Magnay appeared on CNN Thursday from a hill overlooking the Israel-Gaza border. While she reported, Israelis could be heard near her cheering as missiles were fired at Gaza.

    After the liveshot, Magnay tweeted: “Israelis on hill above Sderot cheer as bombs land on #gaza; threaten to ‘destroy our car if I say a word wrong’. Scum.” The tweet was quickly removed, but not before it had been retweeted more than 200 times.
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    Truth really hurts lol
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    Hamas using human shields. Ordering 'palestinians' to ignore he call to leave areas under fire.


    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=093_1405711777

    Whilst the leadership cowers in their bunker.
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    ^^ Scum indeed. From both sides. Cheering the killing or the possible killing of innocents make you worse than my ****.


    (Original post by felamaslen)
    It's in the Hamas covenant to destroy Israel and set up an Islamic state in its place. Please show me where Hamas agreed to a two-state solution, because it would be a complete repudiation of their founding principle.
    Felamaslen : Which came first? Hamas? Or Plan Dalet, razing villages, homes, dispossessing tens of thousands of non-Jews, never allowing them to return?

    The Hamas Charter was a document written in war for war. It is similar to that of the US when they dealt with "the axis of evil".

    Hamas has entertained the idea. It was news. Maybe you can catch up by reading the wikipedia article on Hamas. Its interesting. Read it from top to bottom and update yourself.
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)



    Felamaslen : Which came first? Hamas? Or Plan Dalet, razing villages, homes, dispossessing tens of thousands of non-Jews, never allowing them to return?

    Which came first - Israel, occupation, settlements or 'palestinian' terrorism?

    I'll give you a hint. The 'palestinians' (who back then were called Arabs before being re-branded) were attacking Jewish villagers a century ago.

    About 3 decades before Israel and 5 decades before the so-called 'occupation' and first 'settlement'.
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Felamaslen : Which came first? Hamas? Or Plan Dalet, razing villages, homes, dispossessing tens of thousands of non-Jews, never allowing them to return?

    The Hamas Charter was a document written in war for war. It is similar to that of the US when they dealt with "the axis of evil".

    Hamas has entertained the idea. It was news. Maybe you can catch up by reading the wikipedia article on Hamas. Its interesting. Read it from top to bottom and update yourself.
    There are two mentions of the word "two-state" in the article on Hamas. The first one is immediately followed by a statement of a wish to see the world without Israel (i.e. to hang a map of the world in his Gaza home which did not show Israel on it). The second mention is about endorsing a reversal to the 1967 borders on the West Bank. You would have to be willfully naive to think that should this occur, Hamas will then say "okay that's brilliant, we've got what we wanted" and begin to recognise Israel. No, they would start attacking it with more intensity, as they did after the pull-out of Gaza in 2005. Negotiation does not work, because Hamas are not interested in improving the lives of Palestinians, they are interested in destroying Israel.

    I agree though that the Hamas charter was written in war for war. The trouble is, (a) that war is still going on, and (b) Hamas are on the wrong side.

    As for which came first, well Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood which was founded in 1928 I believe, and their ideology has existed since, well, Muhammad (I'm not saying their ideology is one-and-the-same with Islam, but political Islam or Islamism is as old as Islam itself).

    Yes, many innocent people were dispossessed during and after the 1948 war, and crimes were committed against them. The same happened to Germans in Poland, and indeed Jews in North Africa and the middle east, and Europe of course (which was the worst). There is no political movement to transport large numbers of Germans back to Poland or Jews back to Morocco or Iraq.

    Basically, Hamas are the equivalent of the most extreme, barbaric ultra-Zionist illegal settlers.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Which came first - Israel, occupation, settlements or 'palestinian' terrorism?

    I'll give you a hint. The 'palestinians' (who back then were called Arabs before being re-branded) were attacking Jewish villagers a century ago.

    About 3 decades before Israel and 5 decades before the so-called 'occupation' and first 'settlement'.


    I asked Felamaslen - and not someone who takes daily lessons on the art of hasbaring. (And probably gets paid for it)

    Israel was founded by help of terrorist organizations. FACT. Why terrorist? Because they killed, raped, plundered, tortured and of course lied.
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    been watching news lately and something has got me curious. (kind of a conspiracy nut)

    the news and Israel are saying Hamas fired rockets but where are they, I mean apart from Israel claiming it they ahven't really shown any proof well the BBC hasn't so how do we know if these rockets actually exist?
    Apparently Israel have been able to stop them but that sounds ludicrous I mean how could they stop every single rocket that has been launched?
    also the fact that only one person died from a gaza mortar strike. I'm thankful for the low amount of death but 1 anyone who knows about weapons should know that seems a bit ...........
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    There are two mentions of the word "two-state" in the article on Hamas. The first one is immediately followed by a statement of a wish to see the world without Israel (i.e. to hang a map of the world in his Gaza home which did not show Israel on it). The second mention is about endorsing a reversal to the 1967 borders on the West Bank. You would have to be willfully naive to think that should this occur, Hamas will then say "okay that's brilliant, we've got what we wanted" and begin to recognise Israel. No, they would start attacking it with more intensity, as they did after the pull-out of Gaza in 2005. Negotiation does not work, because Hamas are not interested in improving the lives of Palestinians, they are interested in destroying Israel.
    Okay

    Social welfare

    Hamas is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare wing providing social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories. Such services are not generally provided by the Palestinian Authority. Israeli scholar Reuven Paz estimates that 90% of Hamas activities revolve around "social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities". Social services include running relief programs and funding schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. [56]

    In particular, Hamas funded health services where people could receive free or inexpensive medical treatment. Hamas greatly contributed to the health sector, and facilitated hospital and physician services in the Palestinian territory. On the other hand, Hamas's use of hospitals is sometimes criticised as purportedly serving the promotion of violence against Israel. [57] Charities affiliated with Hamas are known to financially support families of those who have been killed or imprisoned while carrying out militant actions or supporting such actions. Families typically receive a one time grant of $500 to $5,000, and those whose homes have been destroyed by the Israel Defense Forces have their rent paid for temporary housing. Families of militants not affiliated with Hamas sometimes receive less. [58]

    Hamas has funded education and built Islamic charities, libraries, mosques and education centers for women. They also built nurseries, kindergartens and supervised religious schools that provide free meals to children. When children attend their schools and mosques, parents are required to sign oaths of allegiance. Refugees, as well as those left without homes, are able to claim financial and technical assistance from Hamas. [59]

    The work of Hamas in these fields supplements that provided by the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA). Hamas is also well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah. [60] Since the 2008–2009 Israeli military operation in Gaza, Palestinian public opinion polls have shown Hamas steadily increasing in popularity with 52% support compared to 13% for Fatah. All public opinion surveys conducted recently have supported this trend. [61]

    Despite building materials needing to be smuggled into the territory, luxury beach resorts and tourist facilities operated by the interior ministry have been constructed by Hamas government–linked charities, including gardens, playgrounds, football fields, a zoo and restaurants aimed to provide employment and low cost entertainment for citizens. Some Palestinians have complained about the admission fee, criticizing Hamas for charging them to use "government-owned" property.

    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I agree though that the Hamas charter was written in war for war. The trouble is, (a) that war is still going on, and (b) Hamas are on the wrong side.
    Current status of the Charter

    Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons". [83] Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda. [84][85] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas. [83]

    British diplomat and former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006". [86]

    Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, "It's a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended.... It projects anger, not vision." [87] Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh, has questioned the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time.

    Copied and pasted from wikipedia. I'm on my phone so there may be formatting problems, sorry


    (Original post by felamaslen)
    As for which came first, well Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood which was founded in 1928 I believe, and their ideology has existed since, well, Muhammad (I'm not saying their ideology is one-and-the-same with Islam, but political Islam or Islamism is as old as Islam itself).

    Yes, many innocent people were dispossessed during and after the 1948 war, and crimes were committed against them. The same happened to Germans in Poland, and indeed Jews in North Africa and the middle east, and Europe of course (which was the worst). There is no political movement to transport large numbers of Germans back to Poland or Jews back to Morocco or Iraq.

    Basically, Hamas are the equivalent of the most extreme, barbaric ultra-Zionist illegal settlers.
    What I wanted to point out is that the first terrorist organizations in Palestine were Zionist in nature. It is a fact that cannot be denied.
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    I asked Felamaslen - and not someone who takes daily lessons on the art of hasbaring. (And probably gets paid for it)

    Israel was founded by help of terrorist organizations. FACT. Why terrorist? Because they killed, raped, plundered, tortured and of course lied.
    You have a point about Israel being founded by terrorists (yes, it was, partly), but at least they set up a liberal democracy. Hamas and the PLO and Fatah and practically every other Palestinian resistance movement simply don't understand what democracy or a free society is.
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    (Original post by GrapeLeaves)
    Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist:

    “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
    “We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
    “When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.
    "If I were a Palestinian at the right age, I would have joined one of the terrorist organizations at a certain stage."

    Ehud Barak
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Okay

    Social welfare

    Hamas is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare wing providing social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories. Such services are not generally provided by the Palestinian Authority. Israeli scholar Reuven Paz estimates that 90% of Hamas activities revolve around "social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities". Social services include running relief programs and funding schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. [56]

    In particular, Hamas funded health services where people could receive free or inexpensive medical treatment. Hamas greatly contributed to the health sector, and facilitated hospital and physician services in the Palestinian territory. On the other hand, Hamas's use of hospitals is sometimes criticised as purportedly serving the promotion of violence against Israel. [57] Charities affiliated with Hamas are known to financially support families of those who have been killed or imprisoned while carrying out militant actions or supporting such actions. Families typically receive a one time grant of $500 to $5,000, and those whose homes have been destroyed by the Israel Defense Forces have their rent paid for temporary housing. Families of militants not affiliated with Hamas sometimes receive less. [58]

    Hamas has funded education and built Islamic charities, libraries, mosques and education centers for women. They also built nurseries, kindergartens and supervised religious schools that provide free meals to children. When children attend their schools and mosques, parents are required to sign oaths of allegiance. Refugees, as well as those left without homes, are able to claim financial and technical assistance from Hamas. [59]

    The work of Hamas in these fields supplements that provided by the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA). Hamas is also well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah. [60] Since the 2008–2009 Israeli military operation in Gaza, Palestinian public opinion polls have shown Hamas steadily increasing in popularity with 52% support compared to 13% for Fatah. All public opinion surveys conducted recently have supported this trend. [61]

    Despite building materials needing to be smuggled into the territory, luxury beach resorts and tourist facilities operated by the interior ministry have been constructed by Hamas government–linked charities, including gardens, playgrounds, football fields, a zoo and restaurants aimed to provide employment and low cost entertainment for citizens. Some Palestinians have complained about the admission fee, criticizing Hamas for charging them to use "government-owned" property.
    What has social welfare got to do with genuinely accepting a two state solution? Also, you're not attacking my fundamental objection to Hamas, which is that they are not liberal democrats. All of the above looks indistinguishable from Soviet or pro-Castro (for example) agitprop. I'm interested in (a) whether they are actually willing to accept the existence of Israel alongside a Palestinian state, and, even more importantly, (b) whether or not their Palestinian state will be liberal and democratic.

    Current status of the Charter

    Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons". [83] Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda. [84][85] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas. [83]

    British diplomat and former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006". [86]

    Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, "It's a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended.... It projects anger, not vision." [87] Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh, has questioned the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time.

    Copied and pasted from wikipedia. I'm on my phone so there may be formatting problems, sorry
    All very wishy washy and unconvincing. Hamas would have to turn into something unrecognisable from what they were 20 years ago to have a hope of gaining my sympathy or support. I find zero evidence anywhere that they are liberal or democrats, or that they don't target civilians (yes, throwing rockets randomly is targeting civilians, even if the IDF or nobody gets hit by them).

    What I wanted to point out is that the first terrorist organizations in Palestine was Zionists in nature. It is a fact that cannot be denied.
    I won't disagree with you there. But those aren't the terrorists of today. By the way it may interest you to know that I am not a Zionist or a Jew. (Well, I am a Jew by heritage, but not religious or anything.)
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    You have a point about Israel being founded by terrorists (yes, it was, partly), but at least they set up a liberal democracy. Hamas and the PLO and Fatah and practically every other Palestinian resistance movement simply don't understand what democracy or a free society is.


    Before you can think about satisfying your sexual needs you must first satisfy your thirst and your hunger.

    I don't know about democracy and whether it is favoured by the Palestinians but you can't say that Fatah or Hamas doesn't care for the welfare of their people, if you mean that. That's just absurd. Why do you assume that all Islamist movements desire ruling with an iron fist or something. Democracy is no more than a century old I guess while the method of governing using a Caliphate is more than a 1000 years old - can't say "old" - but the point is that it does not necessary mean people living in a modern day Caliphate will be forever stuck in some iron age place. A caliphate has already proved that "democracy" is not necessary for scientific advancements and the likes.
 
 
 
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