Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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MostUncivilised
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#6441
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#6441
(Original post by Smack)
Now I am not sure what "oil revenue" means in the context of Libertatem's BBC article ... possibly the amount of companies operating in the UKCS gained from their oil production.
There is no dispute. Libertatem was confused. An iScotland government will only be able to rely on oil tax revenues as have been clearly outlined in the Scottish government data I posted (i.e. £6 billion).

Overall oil industry revenue is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to determining what the Scottish government will be able to spend.
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MostUncivilised
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#6442
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#6442
(Original post by Smack)
Those organisations all have UK subsidies, which pay tax to the exchequer.
Unless you have some alternative data, or an alternative hypothesis, or anything other than "Well, there are other companies that derive revenue from the existence of an oil industry", I think you have to graciously concede that the £27 billion in overall oil industry revenue is completely irrelevant when it comes to what revenue an iScotland government will have when it secedes from the union.
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Smack
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#6443
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#6443
(Original post by MostUncivilised)
There is no dispute. Libertatem was confused. An iScotland government will only be able to rely on oil tax revenues as have been clearly outlined in the Scottish government data I posted (i.e. £6 billion).

Overall oil industry revenue is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to determining what the Scottish government will be able to spend.
It will also have revenues from the supply chain, too. How much, is impossible to tell, and there seems to be little interest in producing accurate figures regarding how much the industry as a whole contributes in tax to the exchequer, let alone how much of this would actually be carried over to an independent Scotland.
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Smack
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#6444
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#6444
(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Unless you have some alternative data, or an alternative hypothesis, or anything other than "Well, there are other companies that derive revenue from the existence of an oil industry", I think you have to graciously concede that the £27 billion in overall oil industry revenue is completely irrelevant when it comes to what revenue an iScotland government will have when it secedes from the union.
Never once claimed that it was relevant...
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Midlander
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#6445
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#6445
(Original post by Good bloke)
Nah! There is no way in the world we would change such a well-known and historic mark of our national brand, whether Scotland leaves or not. There is no reason to do so, and plenty of reasons to keep it as it is.
National brand?


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Smack
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#6446
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#6446
(Original post by Midlander)
National brand?


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Our culture is a major tourist attraction and source of exports and the Union Jack is a major advertisement for this. It's one of the most recognisable flags in the world.
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Chloe_Campbell96
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#6447
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#6447
It would be awful for Scotland to become Independent and break from the Union.

Scotland depends on money from Westminster. I can understand that we as a Nation would want to be self-sufficient and fund ourselves, but it is not financially possible for Scotland to have the monetary value to fund our NHS, our Fire Services, our education systems and welfare state.
It has been said that Scotland would be able to survive on its own through means of the money made by the generation of wind power. However upon looking into this, the numbers just don't seem to add up and I feel it would be a risk not worth taking.
Also the removal of the nuclear war-head Trident would in fact be detrimental to Scotland's future. Trident provides us with protection, a positive stance within the EU and gives job opportunities.
I also feel that Salmond as an individual is not a man I would like to run our country. He comes across in an agressive and neanderthal-like way especially when he claims how "feart" David Cameron is... Salmond can't even talk properly- how can we let him run the country! In addition to that, the First Minister can be deemed as racist and discriminatory against English people. I am perfectly happy to be patriotic and be supportive of Scotland, yet this "Braveheart" attitude Salmond has is transparent and quite frankly pathetic.
Alex Salmond for the referendum this year is allowing 16 year old Scots vote for the first time. Some say this is making Scotland a more democratic and equal society. Unfortunately this strategic plan has back-fired on Alex... Fifth and Sixth years throughout the country are blatantly aware of the sneaky one Salmond is trying to pull, in attempt ti brainwash Scottish teenagers to vote for what their "ancestors" would have wanted... FREEDOM... Unfortunately Alex Salmond, the majority of our ancestors are infact Irish, Canadian, African, American or Russian... He doesn't even know basic History.
Salmond is often portraying how Independence will "get the Tories out" and remove any existence of the Conservatives in Scotland. Again a little cheap shot from dear Alex in aim to get the votes from those at the turmoil of Thatcherism and the dilapidation in Scottish industry. However, as Salmond keeps reminding us... the referendum is a-political. It shouldn't be about which party you vote for or which party has the better policy. The referendum relates to the simple question of remaining part of the Union... not concerning the hatred for Thatcher and the Tories.
George Galloway (RESPECT) recently pointed out how Independednce would actually be beneficial to the Tories. They would gain the majority of seats at Westminster and would thrive up here at the destruction of New Labour. Again pointing towards a bit of a boo boo from Salmond.

As a Scottish 17 year old, I admit I am scared. I am scared that the country I love will be ripped from the greatest partnership of all time- the relationship of four countries banding together to make one nation- Britain! I am scared for my education, my future, our national security. We as Scots bring so much to the rest of the UK! Hey, without us Scots we wouldn't have won the curling eh?! But I suppose it won't be too long until Salmond uses this as some sot of ammunition against the Union.
I am not aggressive but passionate. I LOVE Scotland, I love Britain. Let's stay as one.
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Jordooooom
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#6448
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#6448
(Original post by Chloe_Campbell96)
It would be awful for Scotland to become Independent and break from the Union.

Scotland depends on money from Westminster. I can understand that we as a Nation would want to be self-sufficient and fund ourselves, but it is not financially possible for Scotland to have the monetary value to fund our NHS, our Fire Services, our education systems and welfare state.
It has been said that Scotland would be able to survive on its own through means of the money made by the generation of wind power. However upon looking into this, the numbers just don't seem to add up and I feel it would be a risk not worth taking.
Also the removal of the nuclear war-head Trident would in fact be detrimental to Scotland's future. Trident provides us with protection, a positive stance within the EU and gives job opportunities.
I also feel that Salmond as an individual is not a man I would like to run our country. He comes across in an agressive and neanderthal-like way especially when he claims how "feart" David Cameron is... Salmond can't even talk properly- how can we let him run the country! In addition to that, the First Minister can be deemed as racist and discriminatory against English people. I am perfectly happy to be patriotic and be supportive of Scotland, yet this "Braveheart" attitude Salmond has is transparent and quite frankly pathetic.
Alex Salmond for the referendum this year is allowing 16 year old Scots vote for the first time. Some say this is making Scotland a more democratic and equal society. Unfortunately this strategic plan has back-fired on Alex... Fifth and Sixth years throughout the country are blatantly aware of the sneaky one Salmond is trying to pull, in attempt ti brainwash Scottish teenagers to vote for what their "ancestors" would have wanted... FREEDOM... Unfortunately Alex Salmond, the majority of our ancestors are infact Irish, Canadian, African, American or Russian... He doesn't even know basic History.
Salmond is often portraying how Independence will "get the Tories out" and remove any existence of the Conservatives in Scotland. Again a little cheap shot from dear Alex in aim to get the votes from those at the turmoil of Thatcherism and the dilapidation in Scottish industry. However, as Salmond keeps reminding us... the referendum is a-political. It shouldn't be about which party you vote for or which party has the better policy. The referendum relates to the simple question of remaining part of the Union... not concerning the hatred for Thatcher and the Tories.
George Galloway (RESPECT) recently pointed out how Independednce would actually be beneficial to the Tories. They would gain the majority of seats at Westminster and would thrive up here at the destruction of New Labour. Again pointing towards a bit of a boo boo from Salmond.

As a Scottish 17 year old, I admit I am scared. I am scared that the country I love will be ripped from the greatest partnership of all time- the relationship of four countries banding together to make one nation- Britain! I am scared for my education, my future, our national security. We as Scots bring so much to the rest of the UK! Hey, without us Scots we wouldn't have won the curling eh?! But I suppose it won't be too long until Salmond uses this as some sot of ammunition against the Union.
I am not aggressive but passionate. I LOVE Scotland, I love Britain. Let's stay as one.
There is so much wrong with this post
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Midlander
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#6449
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#6449
(Original post by Smack)
Our culture is a major tourist attraction and source of exports and the Union Jack is a major advertisement for this. It's one of the most recognisable flags in the world.
The idea of 'Brand Britain' as Andrew Marr once said, is as cringeworthy as it gets. In a world where so much is commercialised to death can we leave our national flag out of it?!


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Midlander
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#6450
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#6450
(Original post by Jordooooom)
There is so much wrong with this post
Care to elaborate?


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FinalMH
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#6451
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#6451
(Original post by Midlander)
Care to elaborate?


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"Scotland depends on money from Westminster." Well for one thing this wouldn't be true.
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Jordooooom
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#6452
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#6452
(Original post by Midlander)
Care to elaborate?


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Yes, when I finish work haha. What I'll say for now is that not voting for independence because you personally don't like salmond is ridiculous. A vote for independence is not voting to be ruled by the SNP forever. And criticizing him for the way he speaks?

Can't recall how having a speech impediment (does he even have one)? Effects your leadership qualities. I'll make sure to ask Alex ferguson about that
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Midlander
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#6453
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#6453
(Original post by Jordooooom)
Yes, when I finish work haha. What I'll say for now is that not voting for independence because you personally don't like salmond is ridiculous. A vote for independence is not voting to be ruled by the SNP forever. And criticizing him for the way he speaks?

Can't recall how having a speech impediment (does he even have one)? Effects your leadership qualities. I'll make sure to ask Alex ferguson about that
The problem is that Yes campaigners are using David Cameron as a reason to go for independence. The big difference is that only one major party supports independence whereas three don't-therefore a vote for independence is a vote for the SNP's vision of it.


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Midlander
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#6454
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#6454
(Original post by FinalMH)
"Scotland depends on money from Westminster." Well for one thing this wouldn't be true.
Scotland runs at a loss and Westminster borrows to cover it. As it does for the other 3 constituents.


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MostUncivilised
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#6455
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#6455
(Original post by Jordooooom)
There is so much wrong with this post
Care to expand on that?
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MostUncivilised
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#6456
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#6456
(Original post by FinalMH)
"Scotland depends on money from Westminster." Well for one thing this wouldn't be true.
In many ways, it is. If it were to separate, the Scottish poond would be at the mercy of the international money markets, particularly if Salmond defaults on the Scottish debt as he's threatening to do.

Also, there are 30,000 civil servants in Scotland who do work that is for the entire UK. The vast majority of them would be made redundant if Scotland becomes independent.
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Mackay
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#6457
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#6457
Bowie has spoken. You must heed his advice.
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Blue Meltwater
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#6458
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#6458
(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Also, there are 30,000 civil servants in Scotland who do work that is for the entire UK. The vast majority of them would be made redundant if Scotland becomes independent.
The White Paper says:

"The Westminster Government employs nearly 30,000 civil servants in Scotland at present. On independence many will
transfer to the employment of the Scottish Government and its
agencies. We will work with the Westminster Government to
preserve continuity of employment for all staff, either by transfer
to the Scottish Government or through continued employment by
the Westminster Government where it still requires their skills."

It's a bit vague, admittedly, but the Scottish Government has at least accounted for it. I don't see how the number could massively drop - surely an independent government would require more civil service jobs based in Scotland, not less?
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MostUncivilised
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#6459
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#6459
(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
It's a bit vague, admittedly, but the Scottish Government has at least accounted for it. I don't see how the number could massively drop - surely an independent government would require more civil service jobs based in Scotland, not less?
The White Paper is deliberately vague.

Most of the civil servants who work on Scottish issues work for the Scottish devolved government, or at the Scottish Office in Westminster (neither of which are counted in that 30,000 figure). These 30,000 civil servants are people who work in (for example) DWP callcentres. I've seen estimates that no more than 3,000 of them would transfer over to a new Scottish administration.

Labour governments in particular placed centralised departmental functions in Scotland to provide employment. In an iScotland, they would no longer be needed there.

Voting YES would be a vote to make 27,000 people redundant.
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Libertatem
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#6460
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#6460
(Original post by MostUncivilised)
The White Paper is deliberately vague.

Most of the civil servants who work on Scottish issues work for the Scottish devolved government, or at the Scottish Office in Westminster (neither of which are counted in that 30,000 figure). These 30,000 civil servants are people who work in (for example) DWP callcentres. I've seen estimates that no more than 3,000 of them would transfer over to a new Scottish administration.

Labour governments in particular placed centralised departmental functions in Scotland to provide employment. In an iScotland, they would no longer be needed there.

Voting YES would be a vote to make 27,000 people redundant.
Attack after attack after attack after attack after attack. Can't you formulate some sort of positive reason for the union as opposed to negative reasons for independence? Every unionist is the same, like a broken jukebox. Tsk tsk.
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