Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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CFL2013
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#6461
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#6461
(Original post by Libertatem)
Attack after attack after attack after attack after attack. Can't you formulate some sort of positive reason for the union as opposed to negative reasons for independence? Every unionist is the same, like a broken jukebox. Tsk tsk.
He's pointing out the obvious flaws in the Yes campaigns policies. He's probably like me and doesn't particularly care if you stay or go, but just feels you guys should vote on the actual facts.

I personally would be fascinated to see how Scotland developed independently, and if you voted for it would shake your hand and wish you luck. But I do feel you should be allowed to make an informed choice.

Can you answer my question on the currency union please? :-)
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L i b
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#6462
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#6462
(Original post by Libertatem)
Yes, England is by far the biggest constituent state of our union. This is why we shouldn't be governed by a government catering mainly for England.
The Government doesn't cater 'mainly for England' any more than it caters mainly for white people, or for men. These are simple attributes which you've highlighted in certain members of the Government - which is ludicrous, tribalistic, backward and divisive.
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Endless Blue
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#6463
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#6463
(Original post by Libertatem)
Attack after attack after attack after attack after attack. Can't you formulate some sort of positive reason for the union as opposed to negative reasons for independence? Every unionist is the same, like a broken jukebox. Tsk tsk.
Either way, he makes a compelling case for the No vote. The reality remains thus: Scottish Independence will be of no value, and indeed hugely detrimental to the vast majority of ordinary Scots outside of the rabid nationalist camp.
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L i b
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#6464
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#6464
(Original post by Libertatem)
Attack after attack after attack after attack after attack. Can't you formulate some sort of positive reason for the union as opposed to negative reasons for independence? Every unionist is the same, like a broken jukebox. Tsk tsk.
Why on earth would we argue in that fashion, or indeed take your instruction on how to argue? If someone came up to me with the terrible idea of burning down my house, I wouldn't wax lyrical to them about the virtues of uncharred home ownership. No, I'd tell them if they did that, I'd give them a hiding and they'd end up in prison.

Either way, it's simply a linguistic trick largely. If I say we'd be better off as part of the UK, you can just as easily translate it to mean we would be poorer if the separatists got their way. Both mean the same thing, yet for some reason you seem bizarrely attached to 'positive' language.

Well, let me tell you, I will be extremely negative about Scottish nationalism, because the outcomes of it would be negative in the extreme.
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player19
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#6465
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#6465
In my opinion Scots have no reason to leave the UK since they were not opressed or something similar, unlike Catalonia. This referendum will turn into a fiasco for the SNP and its supporters.
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MostUncivilised
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#6466
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#6466
(Original post by Libertatem)
Attack after attack after attack after attack after attack. Can't you formulate some sort of positive reason for the union as opposed to negative reasons for independence? Every unionist is the same, like a broken jukebox. Tsk tsk.
What does that even mean? Is it negativity and bullying merely to point out that there will be negative consequences upon a YES vote? And as L I B pointed out, outlining the negative consequences of a YES vote is merely the flipside of the positive consequences of staying.

The reason cybernats respond venemously to the kinds of points I made, and whine about "negativity" and suchlike is beacuse facts such as those I've pointed out hit the SNP's case right where it hurts; the claim that Scotland becoming independent will have no negative consequences whatsoever and everything will be magic fairy dust and unicorns and rainbows in an iScotland.

It is incumbent on the Better Together camp to provide this kind of information to the Scots people, and the more the SNP whines about bullying and negativity, the more we know the degree of contempt they have for their fellow countrymen and their extraordinary sense of entitlement in believing it's some kind of outrage to reflect, even modestly, on some of the negative, real-world consequences of a YES vote.
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MostUncivilised
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#6467
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#6467
(Original post by L i b)
If someone came up to me with the terrible idea of burning down my house, I wouldn't wax lyrical to them about the virtues of uncharred home ownership.
I laughed my head off at that last line Very true, and very well put if I may say.
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Good bloke
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#6468
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#6468
(Original post by L i b)
Why on earth would we argue in that fashion, or indeed take your instruction on how to argue? If someone came up to me with the terrible idea of burning down my house, I wouldn't wax lyrical to them about the virtues of uncharred home ownership. No, I'd tell them if they did that, I'd give them a hiding and they'd end up in prison.

Either way, it's simply a linguistic trick largely. If I say we'd be better off as part of the UK, you can just as easily translate it to mean we would be poorer if the separatists got their way. Both mean the same thing, yet for some reason you seem bizarrely attached to 'positive' language.

Well, let me tell you, I will be extremely negative about Scottish nationalism, because the outcomes of it would be negative in the extreme.
PRSOM. Nicely put. I have made a note to steal the charred house illustration.
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MatureStudent36
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#6469
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#6469
(Original post by FinalMH)
"Scotland depends on money from Westminster." Well for one thing this wouldn't be true.
One Part the UK runs a surplus. Just one part. The SE.

Please stop using SNP numbers . We run a deficit. A smaller deficit than most parts of the UK. But still a deficit. And that's with additional government spending per capita.
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FinalMH
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#6470
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#6470
(Original post by MostUncivilised)
In many ways, it is. If it were to separate, the Scottish poond would be at the mercy of the international money markets, particularly if Salmond defaults on the Scottish debt as he's threatening to do.

Also, there are 30,000 civil servants in Scotland who do work that is for the entire UK. The vast majority of them would be made redundant if Scotland becomes independent.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
One Part the UK runs a surplus. Just one part. The SE.

Please stop using SNP numbers . We run a deficit. A smaller deficit than most parts of the UK. But still a deficit. And that's with additional government spending per capita.
So you're saying Scotland can't afford to be? Scotland can easily raise taxes or cut spending (which the SNP are not proposing) I am just saying Scotland can afford it but they will most likely be much worst off.
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Good bloke
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#6471
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#6471
(Original post by FinalMH)
So you're saying Scotland can't afford to be? Scotland can easily raise taxes or cut spending (which the SNP are not proposing) I am just saying Scotland can afford it but they will most likely be much worst off.
Nobody is saying Scotland cannot afford it, just that it would be better off where it is.
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flugelr
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#6472
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#6472
If Scotland can leave the UK, Aberdeenshire can leave Scotland. I'm voting for Doric independence!
http://effiedeans.blogspot.co.uk/201...ependence.html
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MatureStudent36
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#6473
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#6473
(Original post by FinalMH)
So you're saying Scotland can't afford to be? Scotland can easily raise taxes or cut spending (which the SNP are not proposing) I am just saying Scotland can afford it but they will most likely be much worst off.
Enough of the faux outrage.

I'm merely pointing out that the SNP figures don't match reality.
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Smack
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#6474
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#6474
(Original post by flugelr)
If Scotland can leave the UK, Aberdeenshire can leave Scotland. I'm voting for Doric independence!
http://effiedeans.blogspot.co.uk/201...ependence.html
Excellent idea, I fully support this!

Money from up here is continually funnelled down to the Central Belt. Why should we be subsidising Glasgow and the like? A natural majority of us are Tories (rural + wealthy = Tory), why should we continually get SNP governments?
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Midlander
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#6475
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#6475
(Original post by flugelr)
If Scotland can leave the UK, Aberdeenshire can leave Scotland. I'm voting for Doric independence!
http://effiedeans.blogspot.co.uk/201...ependence.html
Mrs M would love this.


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Blue Meltwater
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#6476
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#6476
Scotpulse has just published a poll about George Osborne's speech - which I think would be the second poll we've had, now? https://m.app.box.com/view_shared/euvpu3kpgs8ma8zsp1w2

It suggests that the core No and Yes votes are evenly split on 38%, while 3% have been convinced to vote No as a result of the speech, 5% vote Yes. 16% remain undecided.

Not sure what weighting they use - these results are unusually negative for the No camp - but it's run by STV so I'd presume it has some credibility.
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L i b
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#6477
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#6477
(Original post by Smack)
Money from up here is continually funnelled down to the Central Belt. Why should we be subsidising Glasgow and the like?
This is a question the SNP really need to answer. For a start, the money would be better spent in places like Aberdeen and the shire; secondly the North East gets shafted in terms of Scottish Government expenditure.

This has left Aberdeen a peculiar city of contrasts. There is both spectacular wealth and absolute deprivation, even in parts close to the city centre. Many of the wealthier inhabitants have ghettoised themselves to the west end, or moved out into the Shire.
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MatureStudent36
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#6478
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#6478
(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
Scotpulse has just published a poll about George Osborne's speech - which I think would be the second poll we've had, now? https://m.app.box.com/view_shared/euvpu3kpgs8ma8zsp1w2

It suggests that the core No and Yes votes are evenly split on 38%, while 3% have been convinced to vote No as a result of the speech, 5% vote Yes. 16% remain undecided.

Not sure what weighting they use - these results are unusually negative for the No camp - but it's run by STV so I'd presume it has some credibility.
Except your link isn't showing what other polls are showing. Its not evenly split.
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Blue Meltwater
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#6479
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#6479
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Except your link isn't showing what other polls are showing. Its not evenly split.
That's what I was saying - with Don't Knows included, the No vote is usually well above 40%. So I'd be interested in seeing how they came to that result.
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MatureStudent36
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#6480
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#6480
(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
That's what I was saying - with Don't Knows included, the No vote is usually well above 40%. So I'd be interested in seeing how they came to that result.
Oh. Got you now.


I'm not surprised there has been an increase in the yes vote, but that'll settle down when the enormity of the lies that Salmond et al have come out with sink in.
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