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    (Original post by james22)
    It happened too long ago for that to matter now. What solution do you propose?
    Why do you say that it doesn't matter. If it was land that Jewish people wanted then a strip of land the size of new jersey in America would have sufficed . Jewish people were even offered parts of Uganda. It baffles me how after millennia of persecution, Jewish people somehow manage to oppress a people who for the most part were hospitable in comparison to their European counterparts.

    I guess the right of return, alongside the decommissioning of all settlements and reparations being paid to the lives lost will perhaps suffice in the short term. The long term is a bit more iffy.
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    (Original post by R£SP£CT)
    Why do you say that it doesn't matter. If it was land that Jewish people wanted then a strip of land the size of new jersey in America would have sufficed . Jewish people were even offered parts of Uganda. It baffles me how after millennia of persecution, Jewish people somehow manage to oppress a people who for the most part were hospitable in comparison to their European counterparts.

    I guess the right of return, alongside the decommissioning of all settlements and reparations being paid to the lives lost will perhaps suffice in the short term. The long term is a bit more iffy.
    Palestinians did have the right to return, but they rejected being ruled by Israel. How can they retern if they reject democracy? Israel will stay put, you would make things a hell of a lot worse by getting rid of it. They also lost all right to reparations when they started attacking Israel.
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    (Original post by james22)
    Palestinians did have the right to return, but they rejected being ruled by Israel. How can they retern if they reject democracy? Israel will stay put, you would make things a hell of a lot worse by getting rid of it. They also lost all right to reparations when they started attacking Israel.
    A right of return with absolutely no strings/conditions attached. They will always have the right to reparations. Yeh I did say it could get iffy. You see I'm not actually against Jewish people living in Palestine. It's a wonderful thing for different people to live alongside each other. But they have to recognise and respect the basic sanctities and values of human life.
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    (Original post by R£SP£CT)
    A right of return with absolutely no strings/conditions attached. They will always have the right to reparations. Yeh I did say it could get iffy. You see I'm not actually against Jewish people living in Palestine. It's a wonderful thing for different people to live alongside each other. But they have to recognise and respect the basic sanctities and values of human life.
    Palestine voted in Hamas, a group who explicitly state that they want to kill Jews and wipe out Israel. Israel has every right to avoid letting Palestinians in with no strings attached. The only way I can see this being resolved is if Palestine loses all of its weapons and all terrorist orginisations (e.g. Hamas) are banned. I hardly support Israel, but they are a lot better than Hamas and until they are gone there cannot be any good result for Palestine.
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    (Original post by james22)
    Are you being serious?

    It is far more free than the rest of the middle east, China, North Korea, much of Africa, South America and Russia.
    Yeah, for Jews maybe.
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    (Original post by Kolasinac138)
    Yeah, for Jews maybe.
    This can only have been said from a position of serious ignorance about Israel.
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    (Original post by Kolasinac138)
    Yeah, for Jews maybe.
    No, for everyone. Israel does not lock up gay people or adulterers for example. They don't punish apostates and those who reject Islam. They have equal rights for men and women. This cannot be said about the surrounding countries.
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    (Original post by Kolasinac138)
    Yeah, for Jews maybe.
    Not just Jews.


    In Egypt the Copts are spat at, stoned, raped and assaulted as they walk to Church. Christians are much safer in Israel.


    That's before we talk about women, people who are LGBT etc.


    In fact, it's even better for Muslims, most Israeli-Arabs have jobs and normal lives, rather than being oppressed war children living in refugee camps. Then you look over the border to Syria...
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    You're VERY ignorant you haven't realised the situation. America and many more other European countries are supplying israel with all the necessary destructive weapons they need to wipe and steal Palestine's land steal it. These israeli soliders are CRIMINALS, they wouldn't hesitated once to kill a small child. I've watched leaked videos of these mass murderers. Do you really think the AMOUNT of innocent people the israelis have killed will be published as public statistics? You must be stupid... what you see and read in the media is just 1/30 of how many they've killed. It's funny how Palestine isn't classed as a country now and isn't displayed in 'Google Maps' yet Israel isn't an official country and it never existed as an official country. It's a country that stole Palestine's country and claimed it's their land. Pure thieves. Check for yourself. I guarantee Google are supplying Israel at this very moment too.
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    (Original post by infexiz)
    You're VERY ignorant you haven't realised the situation. America and many more other European countries are supplying israel with all the necessary destructive weapons they need to wipe and steal Palestine's land steal it. These israeli soliders are CRIMINALS, they wouldn't hesitated once to kill a small child. I've watched leaked videos of these mass murderers. Do you really think the AMOUNT of innocent people the israelis have killed will be published as public statistics? You must be stupid... what you see and read in the media is just 1/30 of how many they've killed. It's funny how Palestine isn't classed as a country now and isn't displayed in 'Google Maps' yet Israel isn't an official country and it never existed as an official country. It's a country that stole Palestine's country and claimed it's their land. Pure thieves. Check for yourself. I guarantee Google are supplying Israel at this very moment too.
    I think it's fairly obvious that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, are living in a different place from reality, and have bought into some utter nonsense.
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    (Original post by R£SP£CT)
    Erm yeh? Babylonian and Roman armies were responsible for the resulting diaspora of Jewish communities, not modern day Arab farmers who in the history prior to Israel lived in those lands.
    Err, no. The Arabs came to Israel with the Arab conquest in the 7th century. That Arab conquest displaced many Jews, though not all

    Though despite regular pogroms against the Jews (particularly the Jews of Hebron), the Jews managed to maintain continuous habitation of Israel from 1000BC to 2015 CE
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    (Original post by R£SP£CT)
    No one has the right to forcibly govern anyone.
    And yet, the Arab world invaded Israel in 1948. They were invading Jewish majority areas that had been assigned to the state of Israel.

    If the Arabs are invading Jewish majority areas, they are axiomatically trying to forcibly govern another people.

    Israel did this, with the help of the British, to the Arabs.
    You really should brush up on your history. The British Empire voted against the partition of Palestine, and rendered huge support to the Arab armies. In fact, the Jordanian Legion which fought in the 1948 war against the Israelites was led by British officers. There were even dogfights between British spitfires and Israeli fighters

    The conception of Israel pre-dated the birth of the UN. So that's all redundant.
    You're right. The conception of Israel goes back 1400 years before the Arab invasion of Israel

    Arab Palestinians will not and do not want to forcibly govern anyone. They're enraged as quite simply they lost majority of their lands to Israeli occupation or wars.
    It would seem the do. Hamas policy is to drive the Jews into the sea. Of course, the Palestinian Authority / Fatah has a much more sensible policy, a more realistic plan, and yet a large number of Palestinians seem intent on frustrating Fatah's reasonable attempts at peace and firing rockets into Israel, which pretty much guarantees there will be no deal

    Tell me, given the majority of Israel's population are descended from Jews who had to flee other Middle Eastern countries due to Arab persecution in the aftermath of 1948, what do you propose they should do?
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    What are you talking about? Where do you think Jews come from?
    As with all nationalities, they are an invention.

    What is the etymology of Jerusalem? Is it an Arabic word?
    Etymological fallacy there.

    Who do you think King Solomon was? A Roman emperor?
    A mythical character, most likely.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    As with all nationalities, they are an invention.
    I haven't encountered many people who outright deny that the origin of the Jewish people is in Israel. I suppose you realise how destructive that admission would be to your arguments

    You also believe there is no such thing as a Palestinian?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Etymological fallacy there.
    How is that a fallacy? Your arguments are looking pretty weak

    Jerusalem is a Hebrew word because the city was originally a Jewish city

    A mythical character, most likely
    And King Herod?

    Of course, he wasn't real; it's a Jewish conspiracy to fake history
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    How is that a fallacy? Your arguments are looking pretty weak

    Jerusalem is a Hebrew word because the city was originally a Jewish city
    No, Jerusalem is a Latin word; Yerushalaim is a Hebrew word. True, Jerusalem is a Latinisation of the Hebrew, but that means nothing. It's a fallacy because the etymological origins of city names has no bearing on moral or legal rights to the place. Several towns in England have Latin name origins; should they therefore be part of Italy?

    And King Herod?
    Herod is a historical figure; we have compelling evidence outside the Bible that he existed. We do not have the same for Solomon.

    And for the record, evidence suggests Herod was of Nabatean Arab descent.

    (Original post by young_guns)
    I haven't encountered many people who outright deny that the origin of the Jewish people is in Israel. I suppose you realise how destructive that admission would be to your arguments
    You're conflating Judaism as a religion with Jewish as an ethnic group or nationality. The former goes back thousands of years (admittedly with changes and various sects and denominations), while the latter is a much more recent idea

    You also believe there is no such thing as a Palestinian?
    Not objectively, no. It's an invented idea like all nationalities.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    No, Jerusalem is a Latin word; Yerushalaim is a Hebrew word.
    So you accept Israel used to be inhabited by Jews?

    Herod is a historical figure
    Indeed. He's a historical Jewish king who ruled over areas that are today part of Israel/Palestine.

    And for the record, evidence suggests Herod was of Nabatean Arab descent.
    Who converted to Judaism, and ruled over a Jewish kingdom. I'm glad you accept that area of the world was a Jewish kingdom

    You're conflating Judaism as a religion with Jewish as an ethnic group or nationality.
    You seem to be confused. Show me where I conflated them?

    It's also interesting that you attach land ownership and "peopleness" to ethnicity rather than culture.

    The logical endpoint of your belief is that no immigrant to Britain can ever really be one of us, they'll always be foreigners. According to your worldview

    Not objectively, no.
    I'm glad you accept that. So we have a completely artificial nationality on the one hand with the "Palestinians", and an ancient culture which has indisputable ancient ties to that area. Thanks for confirming
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    while the latter is a much more recent idea
    Actually, you're completely wrong about that. It's a bit disconcerting that you consider yourself well informed on this subject but could be so ignorant of the most basic and ancient tenet of Judaism, which is that it considers itself a "nation", not just a religion and had married within accordingly.
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    Err, no. The Arabs came to Israel with the Arab conquest in the 7th century. That Arab conquest displaced many Jews, though not all
    Nope. There were undoubtedly some Arab migrants, yes, but the local population was also largely Arabised over time (adopting Arabic language, dress, etc). Many of them also converted to Islam, though of course Jewish and Christian minorities remained.

    Though despite regular pogroms against the Jews (particularly the Jews of Hebron), the Jews managed to maintain continuous habitation of Israel from 1000BC to 2015 CE
    I'm not going to claim that the Middle Age Islamic world was some paragon of religious freedom and equality, because it wasn't, but in general Jews were far better off there than they were in Christian Europe. For example, when the Crusaders came, the Jews of Palestine fought on the side of the Muslims, and later on Saladin's side when he took it from the Crusaders.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Nope. There were undoubtedly some Arab migrants
    How many?
 
 
 
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