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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    was also largely Arabised over time (adopting Arabic language, dress, etc). Many of them also converted to Islam, though of course Jewish and Christian minorities remained.
    Also, even if that were to be accepted, why should those who collaborated with the invading culture have superior rights to those who fled in order to keep their culture intact?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    though of course Jewish and Christian minorities remained
    And yet its your position that Jewish minority deserves no rights whatsoever? You may claim otherwise but clearly it is if you'd deny them self-determination in the areas in which they were a majority.

    Tell me, did you oppose Scottish independence?
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    So you accept Israel used to be inhabited by Jews?
    People of the Jewish faith, yes, not the modern conception of Jewishness as a national or ethnic (or 'cultural', if you insist) identity.

    Indeed. He's a historical Jewish king who ruled over areas that are today part of Israel/Palestine.

    Who converted to Judaism, and ruled over a Jewish kingdom. I'm glad you accept that area of the world was a Jewish kingdom
    See above.

    You seem to be confused. Show me where I conflated them?
    You do it every time you equate modern 'Jews' to Biblical-era 'Jews'.

    It's also interesting that you attach land ownership and "peopleness" to ethnicity rather than culture.
    I don't. Quite the opposite, as I said I consider ethnic identity to be a relatively recent invention.

    As for 'culture', see my response to the next bit below

    I'm glad you accept that. So we have a completely artificial nationality on the one hand with the "Palestinians", and an ancient culture which has indisputable ancient ties to that area. Thanks for confirming
    You're seriously arguing that the Jews who lived in the area that is now Israel/Palestine 2000 years ago, the far flung Jewish communities around the world in the intervening period, and modern Israeli Jews are culturally the same? Despite not sharing anything that is generally considered to make up a distinct culture, such as language (Hebrew being a extinct language before its revival by Zionism), cuisine, literature, dress habits, etc?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    People of the Jewish faith, yes, not the modern conception of Jewishness as a national or ethnic (or 'cultural', if you insist) identity.
    Are you not aware that Jews have referred to themselves as a nation for thousands of years? Perhaps you're confusing the idea of nation, which is a very old concept adhered to by the Jews, with that of nation-state.

    I don't. Quite the opposite, as I said I consider ethnic identity to be a relatively recent invention.
    Then you'd be utterly wrong.

    You're seriously arguing that the Jews who lived in the area that is now Israel/Palestine 2000 years ago, the far flung Jewish communities around the world in the intervening period, and modern Israeli Jews are culturally the same?

    Despite not sharing anything that is generally considered to make up a distinct culture, such as language (Hebrew being a extinct language before its revival by Zionism)
    :lol: What language do you think the Pentateuch and Tanakh (Torah / Hebrew Bible) are in? If you were to visit a Jewish community in 11th century Grenada, or the Jews of London in 1750, or the Jews of Hebron in the 1500s, or the Jews of Egypt in the 5th century, they would all possess and revere the Hebrew Bible / Torah, written in Hebrew. It's incredible you didn't know that

    literature
    So you've never heard of the Babylonian Talmud? Or the enormous amount of Jewish literature that has been produced by Jewish communities all over the world, whether in Europe, North Africa or Mid East, and how it's been shared between those communities?

    It's incredible that you feel yourself competent to comment when your knowledge of Judaism and the Jewish ethnos is so obviously lacking
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    X
    By the way, I'm very happy to school you a bit to bring you up to speed on the history of Judaism.

    Modern Judaism is called Rabbinic Judaism, which evolved during the Babylonian Captivity. Rabbinic Judaism is the form that spread through migration to North Africa, Italy, Spain, and then north into Central Europe.

    There is a clear continuity in Jewish literature from the Mekhilta of the Tannaitic Period (around 200CE), to the Genesis Rabbah and Lamentations of the 5th and 6th centuries, through the Midrash proverbs of the 8th and 9th centuries, the Exodus Rabbah of the 11th century, the Midrash Aggadah of the 13th century. These are all examples of a culture that was continuous and without discontinuity from the time of the Roman Empire to today.

    By the way, do you know where Yiddish came from? It was a language spoken by Central European Jews (who it is believed had migrated north from Italy, where they had come to from other places). It emerged in the 9th century CE, it's written with Hebrew script and it's a mix of medieval German and Hebrew.

    There's a reason we know about all these rabbis from the 9th and 10th centuries and the middle ages, in Germany and Spain and North Africa and Palestine; it's because they produced a vast body of literature which is still fundamentally important to Jewish sects today, and which was connected at the time and played off one another. That literature that was produced then was connected with what came before it and what came after it.

    You would do well to perhaps read up a little on the Jews, it's a fascinating history and they're really the only continuous culture that has existed from antiquity to modern times. You act as though we don't really know where Jewish people come from, which is ridiculous. Their writings provide a very clear history; in fact, late antiquity and the dark ages was no dark age for the Jews. The 8th to the 12th century is in fact considered a Golden Age, and one that provides an extremely clear link and continuity between ancient and modern Judaism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbinic_literature
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    Actually, you're completely wrong about that. It's a bit disconcerting that you consider yourself well informed on this subject but could be so ignorant of the most basic and ancient tenet of Judaism, which is that it considers itself a "nation", not just a religion and had married within accordingly.
    The earliest recorded sources of the traditional idea of Jewishness by matrilineal descent only date back to around 200CE. Anything more than that is largely a result of trying to stretch interpretations of Biblical passages.

    The arrogant snarls don't prove anything, btw. I can quite easily say the same about you.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    The earliest recorded sources of the traditional idea of Jewishness by matrilineal descent only date back to around 200CE. Anything more than that is largely a result of trying to stretch interpretations of Biblical passages.
    The fact that Jewish people may have changed their rules on descent proves nothing about the nature of their polity/ethnos.

    I'd perhaps even go further to say it might only have been in the Middle Ages that the matrilineal rule came in. That doesn't change their affinity to one another as a nation.

    And are you avoiding the very clear reference in the Torah/Tanakh/Old Testament to Israelites as a nation?

    The arrogant snarls don't prove anything, btw. I can quite easily say the same about you.
    My "arrogant snarls" (by which you mean to say, my pointing out the gaps in your knowledge) are accurate. It appears you weren't even aware the Torah is written in Hebrew and always has been

    Are you going to respond to the rest of my comments, or are you going to dodge my substantive debunking of your claim of discontinuity between ancient and modern judaism?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    You're seriously arguing that the Jews who lived in the area that is now Israel/Palestine 2000 years ago and modern Israeli Jews are culturally the same?
    Answer this for me; Jews were never wholly expelled from Palestine. They continued to live there from ancient times. There were prominent Jewish communities in Hebron and Safed, amongst other places. For example, Safed was 40% Jewish in the 1550s.

    Where do you claim these Jews came from? Are you denying there has been a continuous Jewish community in Palestine from ancient times to modern times?

    And if they are not the same as Jews from elsewhere, why do they share the same religion? Is it just the most amazing, incredible coincidence that the Jews of Palestine adhere to the same Rabbinic Judaism as the Jewish communities of Europe and other areas of the Middle East?
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    Are you not aware that Jews have referred to themselves as a nation for thousands of years?
    They've been using a French word to refer to themselves?

    Perhaps you're confusing the idea of nation, which is a very old concept adhered to by the Jews, with that of nation-state.
    A much more likely explanation is that gradually over time certain Hebrew words and concepts have been mistranslated and misinterpreted over time, and at a later date attempted to fit in with European ideas.

    Then you'd be utterly wrong.
    Nope, I'd be right. Nationalist historiography has been considered junk (though unfortunately, often dangerous junk) for quite a while now.


    :lol: What language do you think the Pentateuch and Tanakh (Torah / Hebrew Bible) are in? If you were to visit a Jewish community in 11th century Grenada, or the Jews of London in 1750, or the Jews of Hebron in the 1500s, or the Jews of Egypt in the 5th century, they would all possess and revere the Hebrew Bible / Torah, written in Hebrew. It's incredible you didn't know that
    I think you're strawmanning me and being obstinate deliberately now. You know full well that I was referring to vernaculars. We don't consider Muslims to have a "shared language" of Arabic just because the Koran is in Arabic, as many Muslims do not speak Arabic as their native, daily-used language (ditto Catholics with Latin).



    So you've never heard of the Babylonian Talmud? Or the enormous amount of Jewish literature that has been produced by Jewish communities all over the world, whether in Europe, North Africa or Mid East, and how it's been shared between those communities?
    I never said Jewish communities didn't write anything. There's quite a big gulf between that and the claim that secular Hebrew-language literature was being disseminated en masse contemporarily all the way through the pre-Zionist period.

    It's incredible that you feel yourself competent to comment when your knowledge of Judaism and the Jewish ethnos is so obviously lacking
    Considering you still hold to the idea that there even is an 'ethnos' as anything more than an idea, this is very much pot calling kettle.
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    The fact that Jewish people may have changed their rules on descent proves nothing about the nature of their polity/ethnos.
    It says plenty. A significant change in the criteria of who can be considered a member of a group makes the claim that the group itself is anything more than an invented idea ridiculous.

    I'd perhaps even go further to say it might only have been in the Middle Ages that the matrilineal rule came in. That doesn't change their affinity to one another as a nation.

    And are you avoiding the very clear reference in the Torah/Tanakh/Old Testament to Israelites as a nation?
    Already discussed this in my earlier comment regarding the term 'nation'.

    My "arrogant snarls" (by which you mean to say, my pointing out the gaps in your knowledge) are accurate.
    No, they are largely an arrogant conviction that your interpretation and narrative must be the correct one, and that someone who disputes it must therefore not know about the subject.

    It appears you weren't even aware the Torah is written in Hebrew and always has been
    No, that did not appear. If you were being intellectually honest rather than trying to look for a chance to say "Gotcha", you'd have realised (or maybe you did, but chose to push ahead with the strawman anyway) I was talking about vernacular languages.

    Are you going to respond to the rest of my comments, or are you going to dodge my substantive debunking of your claim of discontinuity between ancient and modern judaism?
    Which would be a claim I never made.

    Unsurprisingly, responding to a lot of comments can take time.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    They've been using a French word to refer to themselves?
    Actually, the French/English applied the word nation as the best translation of the entity of the Israelites/Jews

    And Jews were referred to as a nation by non-Jewish writers in Europe, as being a distinct entity that had its own culture, its own customs, its own religion.

    A much more likely explanation is that gradually over time certain Hebrew words and concepts have been mistranslated
    Which Hebrew words and concepts are you claiming have been mistranslated?

    Nope, I'd be right. Nationalist historiography has been considered junk (though unfortunately, often dangerous junk) for quite a while now.
    Again, you seem to be confused. The Hebrews/Israelites/Jews have viewed themselves as being a distinct entity/grouping/ethnos for a long time. You are confusing their view of themselves as being a nation, with the Zionist objective of a nation-state. The former predated the latter by thousands of years

    I think you're strawmanning me and being obstinate deliberately now. You know full well that I was referring to vernaculars.
    I'm not strawmanning you at all. You claimed the Jews did not share the normal traits of a culture, like language, and asserted Hebrew was not used by Jewish communities until the creation of the State of Israel. That is untrue.

    Jewish communities in all places and at all times have held onto Hebrew as the religious language, the language of their Torah/Tanakh. The fact there was communication and interaction between Jewish communities in Europe and North Africa, the sharing of ideas and religious commentaries, seems very clearly the basic element of a shared culture.

    I never said Jewish communities didn't write anything. There's quite a big gulf between that and the claim that secular Hebrew-language literature was being disseminated en masse contemporarily all the way through the pre-Zionist period.
    That's not what I claimed, and now you're strawmanning me. You said that the Jews did not share anything that would resemble a culture, such as language, literature, and so on. I was pointing out they clearly have and do. Not only the continuous use of Hebrew based on their ancient writings, which has been maintained up to the present day, but also the widespread sharing of religious commentaries, of rabbinical literature, across Jewish communities.

    In the 10th century, Jewish communities in Mainz would be sending letters to Jewish communities in North Africa and the Levant. They would discuss religious issues, and keep each other up to date. That is clearly a shared culture, the fact you won't even concede that is very suspect
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    Also, even if that were to be accepted, why should those who collaborated with the invading culture have superior rights to those who fled in order to keep their culture intact?
    Neither had any rights in a modern sense. Ideas of democratic rights, national self-determination, etc came much, much later.
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    And yet its your position that Jewish minority deserves no rights whatsoever? You may claim otherwise but clearly it is if you'd deny them self-determination in the areas in which they were a majority.
    See above. We're talking about Dark Age/Medieval events here, no-one was considered to have 'self-determination' at the time.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    It says plenty. A significant change in the criteria of who can be considered a member of a group makes the claim that the group itself is anything more than an invented idea ridiculous.
    That's a bizarre comment. Say I have a private members club called the Garrick Club. It is a mens only club. At some point, we vote to allow women into the club. You would say "Aha! That proves it's not actually a club/group".

    In fact, the change from patrilineal to matrilineal merely strengthens the cohesiveness of the group by preventing its dissipation, underlining the way that Jews clearly viewed themselves as being a distinct group. Do you deny they are and have been a distinct group?

    Already discussed this in my earlier comment regarding the term 'nation'.
    What you said was that you were sure it was a mistranslation. I asked you to indicate what Hebrew words you think have been mistranslated.

    No, they are largely an arrogant conviction that your interpretation and narrative must be the correct one, and that someone who disputes it must therefore not know about the subject.
    I accept that someone can look at the same evidence and come to a different conclusion. What concerns me is that you don't appear to be particularly knowledgeable about the history of the Jewish people / Jewish religion, and so I question whether you are in a position to make assertions about what the Jews are and are not in light of that

    No, that did not appear. If you were being intellectually honest rather than trying to look for a chance to say "Gotcha", you'd have realised (or maybe you did, but chose to push ahead with the strawman anyway) I was talking about vernacular languages.
    I am being intellectually honest, you are trying to move the goalposts. You said that the Jewish people don't share the normal characteristics of a culture, such a language or literature. I pointed out that they do. If you were being intellectually honest, you would have to concede that your reach exceeded your grasp when you made that claim.

    How does the fact that many Jews used a different vernacular detract from their common adherence to a single religious language? Furthermore, many Jews in Central Europe spoke Yiddish, which is a mix of medieval German and Hebrew, underlining their origin and cultural mix.

    Which would be a claim I never made.
    So do you accept that there is what could be called a corpus of Jewish historical and religious literature that has been produced fairly continuously since they emerged as a group? Do you accept that the Jewish communities of Europe shared a religion and culture with their North African and Middle Eastern brethren? Do you accept that there has not been some absolute or jarring discontinuity that separates ancient Jews from modern Jews?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Neither had any rights in a modern sense. Ideas of democratic rights, national self-determination, etc came much, much later.
    It's unclear what you're getting at.

    Do you understand the difference between a nation and a nation-state? Do you understand the difference between the ancient Jewish conception of themselves as a nation, and Zionism?

    That is really fundamental here.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    See above. We're talking about Dark Age/Medieval events here, no-one was considered to have 'self-determination' at the time.
    The fact self-determination had not been conceived in the dark ages doesn't mean the descendents of Dark Age Jews have no right to it

    You accepted that a Jewish minority remained in Palestine. That minority was never entirely expelled, and once you get to 1948, in certain areas of Palestine there is a Jewish majority.

    Those areas were assigned to Israel. Why do you deny those Jewish majority areas in 1948 the right to self-determination?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    People of the Jewish faith
    Do you believe that there is such a thing today as a Jewish culture? Do you believe there are cultural and social bonds between Jewish communities, shared linguistic and religious customs, and a concept of the Jewish people as a distinct entity?

    I'm not asking you whether you believe it's a modern invention, I'm simply asking whether you believe it exists now.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    X
    I'm going to tell you something, and I think this is quite important to understand if you are going to debate on the subject of the Middle East and Israel/Palestine, on Judaism and Jewishness.

    A crucial distinction, perhaps the crucial distinction, between Islam/Christianity, and Judaism, is the nature of their conception of revelation. In Islam and Christianity, they believe the primary revelation of Yahweh/Allah was through a person, Muhammed in the first case and Jesus in the second.

    Judaism, by contrast, believes the revelation of god was to the entire Israelite nation, in the form of the stone tablets at Mount Sinai and through a unique covenant. Jewish religion and culture also has a strong focus on the Hebrew exodus from Egypt, their wandering in the desert, and how as a nation they adopted monotheism and rejected idolatry/paganism once and for all.

    Now, whether the stories about the exodus, the tablets and ten commandments and so on, are true or not (I tend to believe not) is completely irrelevant. This is how the Jewish people have perceived themselves ever since they lived in Israel; they conceived themselves as being a unique nation due to gods revelation to them as a nation, and his unique covenant with the Israelites (as opposed to, say, the Moabites or Amalekites)

    Now, you might not accept that the Jews should have a nation-state, but that is a completely different proposition from your rather strange claims that the Jews did not view themselves as a distinct ethnic/cultural group (i.e. a nation) before Zionism. That simply betrays a stark lack of knowledge about Jewish history, culture and religion
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    (Original post by infexiz)
    You're VERY ignorant you haven't realised the situation. America and many more other European countries are supplying israel with all the necessary destructive weapons they need to wipe and steal Palestine's land steal it. These israeli soliders are CRIMINALS, they wouldn't hesitated once to kill a small child. I've watched leaked videos of these mass murderers. Do you really think the AMOUNT of innocent people the israelis have killed will be published as public statistics? You must be stupid... what you see and read in the media is just 1/30 of how many they've killed. It's funny how Palestine isn't classed as a country now and isn't displayed in 'Google Maps' yet Israel isn't an official country and it never existed as an official country. It's a country that stole Palestine's country and claimed it's their land. Pure thieves. Check for yourself. I guarantee Google are supplying Israel at this very moment too.
    Who is this aimed at?
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    Another savage terrorist attack by the 'palestinian' terrorist entity.

    A Palestinian man from the West Bank stabbed several people Wednesday morning, in a suspected terror attack on the 40 bus line in central Tel Aviv.

    At least four of the victims – including the bus driver – were listed in serious condition, while three others suffered moderate injuries and two were lightly hurt. Several more people suffered shock, according to Magen David Adom paramedics.

    Blood was splattered intermittently along a few hundred meters of the crime scene, from where the attack first began, to where the victims lay waiting for paramedics on the sidewalks and in the surrounding parking lots.


 
 
 
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