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    (Original post by saayagain)
    During WW1 - Balfour Declaration. Britain agreed to help self-proclaimed Zionists establish a home land in Palestine in exchange for the victory of Britain and co in WW1.
    End of WW1 - Ottoman Empire is divided between the victors. Britain controls Palestine, Trans-Jordan and Iraq. France controls Lebanon and Syria.
    Late 1920s early 1930s - Hitler rises to power. Agrees with Zionists to facilitate the transfer of assets held by Jews that leave Germany for Palestine. Palestinians show disapproval of mass immigration. British forces repress protests.
    Start of WW2 - Jews still emigrate to Palestine, if they can.
    End of WW2 - Britain seeks to give Jews a homeland in Palestine aka Israel with the approval of the UN. Palestinians disapprove. Conflict breaks out.
    1946 onwards - Occupation of land. Removal of Palestinians from their homes etc.
    1948 - Arab Israeli war. Arab League (Eygpt, Syria etc) vs Israel

    There onwards is tension between Israel and everyone around them. Various wars. Expansion of Israel land into Palestinian territory. Oppression brings about Hamas and Fattah.

    This adds more context as to why Arabs dislike the US and Israel.

    Israel is untouchable. Most people around them are classified as terrorists.
    I notice you stopped the at 48. No mention of the times when Israel ws attacked?
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    Depends who you listen to but the long and short of it is that the Palestinians, more specifically Hamas believe that Israel shouldn't exist and that the land it's on should belong to them, and obviously Israel disagrees (not least because Hamas charter proposes retaking that land by murdering every single Israeli).

    israel argues that Hamas are a guerrilla outfit and that the civilian deaths are a result of that, while Palestine argues the civilian deaths are evidence of a sustained campaign of genocide against them.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    I notice you stopped the at 48. No mention of the times when Israel ws attacked?
    You're tedious mate...

    I mentioned the important bits...
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    You're tedious mate...

    I mentioned the important bits...
    Just pointing out there's important stuff you left out
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Just pointing out there's important stuff you left out
    Like? Please divulge the important information.

    The whole Israel Palestine situation is very clear.
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    Like? Please divulge the important information.

    The whole Israel Palestine situation is very clear.
    Its as clear as mud - the entire thing is complicated. You've got a guerrilla outfit endangering their own citizens lives, except that's an lie to excuse a genocide attempt, but actually there's footage of weaponry hidden in civilian areas, but that's fabricated, but not according to the un...

    that's before we even get into the claims over the territory.
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    Like? Please divulge the important information.

    The whole Israel Palestine situation is very clear.
    Precisely, so of oribg anything post 1948 is disengionious.
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    When Hitler was killing the Jews, most of them escaped to seek refugee in Palestine. A bunch of evil people from America brainwashed some of the refugees, they were called Zionists. They equipped them with arms and sent them to attack the Arabs and drive them away from the land. That's how the conflict started.
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    Its as clear as mud - the entire thing is complicated. You've got a guerrilla outfit endangering their own citizens lives, except that's an lie to excuse a genocide attempt, but actually there's footage of weaponry hidden in civilian areas, but that's fabricated, but not according to the un...

    that's before we even get into the claims over the territory.
    It's easy to fix.

    Two state solution with a UN controlled demilitarized zone. Problem solved.

    Israel has a state. Palestine has a state. No more issues with other countries.

    Make no mistake. Israel is the oppressor. If you don't agree with that then...I don't know what to say.

    This isn't a european colonist vs native american scenario where noone cares about what goes on.

    This topic is boring because it is so straight forward.

    The reality is Israel wants the whole of Palestine. That's why they do not acknowledge the Palestinians. Simple as. So, war will come again. Now or in 100 years. Noone will forget these injustices so good luck to Israel. The longer they do what they do, the more unreasonable people get.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Precisely, so of oribg anything post 1948 is disengionious.
    What?
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    It's easy to fix.

    Two state solution with a UN controlled demilitarized zone. Problem solved.

    Israel has a state. Palestine has a state. No more issues with other countries.

    Make no mistake. Israel is the oppressor. If you don't agree with that then...I don't know what to say.

    This isn't a european colonist vs native american scenario where noone cares about what goes on.

    This topic is boring because it is so straight forward.

    The reality is Israel wants the whole of Palestine. That's why they do not acknowledge the Palestinians. Simple as. So, war will come again. Now or in 100 years. Noone will forget these injustices so good luck to Israel. The longer they do what they do, the more unreasonable people get.
    a two state solution will never happen, not while Hamas refuse to negotiate peace treaties.
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    a two state solution will never happen, not while Hamas refuse to negotiate peace treaties.
    lol Great. Hamas don't want to negotiate at all. All they want is the destruction of Israel and to kill all Jews. blah blah blah...Give me some material I can read that has come from the horses mouth.

    1) Why don't they negotiate? Provide proof if you can.
    2) Does Israel make any concessions?

    I hate these stupid arguments because it makes it seem like this matters. The UN should force both to come to an agreement otherwise wait for Iran to get a nuclear bomb then there can be a war. Iran won't attack Israel as they are not equipped to defend themselves. This is why Iran is prevented from acquiring a nuke.

    boring
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    Check out Gist4Me, news site ( www.gist4me.com ). They have a short summary of the historical context behind most popular stories, and I have seen them cover the Israel/Palestine situation and the Ukrainian crisis.
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    End of WW2 - Britain seeks to give Jews a homeland in Palestine aka Israel with the approval of the UN.
    Britain voted against the partition of Palestine at the UN, and banned Jewish immigration to Palestine.

    You really need to brush up on your history
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    lol Great. Hamas don't want to negotiate at all. All they want is the destruction of Israel and to kill all Jews. blah blah blah...Give me some material I can read that has come from the horses mouth.
    From Article Seven of the Hamas Charter

    The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said:The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the last Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    It's easy to fix.

    Two state solution with a UN controlled demilitarized zone. Problem solved.

    Israel has a state. Palestine has a state. No more issues with other countries.
    :lol: That was what was offered in 1948.

    Remind me how the Arab world responded?
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    :lol: That was what was offered in 1948.

    Remind me how the Arab world responded?
    Ok.

    All out war. No hope of peace. Hurry up and nuke everyone...
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    Britain voted against the partition of Palestine at the UN, and banned Jewish immigration to Palestine.

    You really need to brush up on your history
    meh

    Only because Labour was the leading party at the time.
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    X
    Sorry it took me a while to reply, I've had a busy week.

    Rather than responding to each individual post and repeating myself, I'm going to try and give a general reply, broken up into what appear to me to be the points of contention.

    Firstly, nationhood. I appreciate there might be a slight difference of definitions here, but I think you are having to set an incredibly wide definition to present pre-Zionist Jews as a nation. It is true that they had a shared liturgical language, used by religious figures and scholars for the purpose of religious literature which was shared between them. But the same is true for Catholics, or Muslims, and several other religions, yet we don't consider them 'nations'.

    Furthermore, belonging to a nation is generally considered an exclusive matter (excepting when one nation is considered a subdivision of a larger one, i.e. one can be both Welsh and British, Catalan and Spanish, etc), and indeed an important part of the struggle against European anti-Semitism and for Jewish emancipation was that Jews were indeed part of the French/Greek/German/etc nation, rather than foreign aliens (as the anti-Semites claimed).

    To answer your question about whether I think there is a distinct Jewish people now, the answer is sort of; I think there is a distinct Israeli Jewish people, but significant numbers of non-Israeli Jews across the world remain separate from it.

    Secondly, self-determination. Peoples and cultures have been moving, mixing and diverging for as long as there have been people, and yes, often that was accompanied by forced assimilations, expulsions, genocides, etc. Trying to backdate historical claims would be both a practical and legal nightmare. We don't have to believe that the processes that produced the existing demographic makeups of the world were just, but at some point or other we have to accept that we can't do anything about them without significant violations of the rights of others.

    As for what happened in 1948, the proposed partition gave the Jews quite a bit more than just the Jewish majority areas - indeed, that would have resulted in a proposal for a Jewish state that was significantly smaller and very teritorially non-contiguous.
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    :lol: That was what was offered in 1948.

    Remind me how the Arab world responded?
    What's so surprising about the idea that after decades of conquest, occupation and colonisation, what you're willing to accept might have dropped?
 
 
 
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