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    (Original post by Manchester United)
    [5 days ago]







    I'm not afraid to say, I told you so - you are right Jimmy. There is a fundamental problem with Arsenal's mentality and that comes from the manager. You were 2-0 up and cruising but still found a way of bottling it.

    Embarrassing.
    I still don't buy it. We were lucky not to concede twice before we scored and Carroll's goals were just a continuation of the poor defensive quality (and arguably also goalkeeping on the second- great decision by Wenger to play Ospina over a fit Cech) we had shown from the start of the game. People will fit events to their preconceived opinions. You fit it to the 'bottler' narrative. I fit it to the 'poor GK selection and a defence which has been declining since 13/14' narrative.
    You could see the goals coming from the start of the game with how shaky the defence was on crosses.

    My problem with the 'mentality' argument is that it's too difficult to actually identify it during a game and becomes a lazy, go-to explanation for everything. It's far more worthwhile to look at issues with the tactics, playing style and player quality etc. which are, IMO, bigger issues at the club.

    But then I guess it comes down to the manager, anyway, so who gives a ****? No point nitpicking as the people who should take the blame are the same regardless.

    (Original post by leinad2012)
    Mentality is DEFINITELY a factor. People discount it but it's very important.
    Take my uni football team, we have a winning mentality, we never give up and are always positive and as a result often win games we have no right to win in terms of individual quality. Won 1 of our leagues this year, where we'd been promoted the year before and were one of the worse sides on paper. But we have a never say die attitude that won us a lot of points with last minute winners and battling results when we weren't playing well. Then I compare that to my summer cricket team, where we go out every week like we've already lost before a ball is even bowled. As a result, we lose games we should easily win, because bar one of 2 players there's no fight.
    It's the difference between letting a sloppy goal in and seeing out the half, and getting nervous and ****ing up.
    I never said it's not a factor, just that it's vastly overplayed by the media and pundits and our squad building, tactics/playing style and injury management are far bigger issues.

    I don't put much value in comparing your uni and semi-casual teams to highly motivated millionaire international professionals who often struggled up from the gutter and play in front of millions of people for a living. There may well be a tiny number of high-profile players with a genuinely poor mentality (eg. Balotelli) but they are the exception rather than the norm and I think our club/team has bigger problems.

    (Original post by Jimmy Seville)
    Yet the same thing happens year after year. the only consistent factor in Arsenal's struggles in the last few years is lack of a strong mentality when the pressure for titles is on.
    Nah.The last time we 'bottled' a title was 10/11.

    Since then:

    11/12 we were just crap, RvP bailed us out.

    12/13 we were just crap and lacked creativity for most of the season.

    In 13/14, we predictably died once Ramsey and Ozil got injured (given that Walcott and others were already injured) and our fixture list got significantly harder. Uninformed viewers say that we bottled that season due to mentality but anyone with two brain cells could predict what would happen that season, especially when we signed no-one (edit: actually, we signed Kim ****ing Kallstrom that winter. Wenger, when asked about what would happen to our striking options if Giroud was to get injured, said 'we have Sanogo') that January. That's not even mentioning the suicidal 'tactics' used against Chelsea and Liverpool in the thrashings.

    14/15 we were crap and then rescued our CL qualification trophy due to players coming back from injury.


    You've addressed all those points (some more than others) and
    Not really. No actual backup for Coquelin (lol @ Flamini/Arteta). No proper backup for Cazorla until March (El Neny's first PL start). No goals bought into the side last summer, when we clearly needed them.


    Coquelin and Cazorla with significant lay-offs, Walcott with another significant layoff, Sanchez injuries (and having to play Walcott there since no real replacement was brought in), going into the season knowing Welbeck would miss most of it. Clubs that are really going to go for the title don't take massive gambles on goal output and player quality by spending £10 million all summer.
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    Chelsea last season and Leicester this season have had high-scoring starts to their season which gradually shifted to 1-0 wins as they closed in on title glory. They were able to achieve this by keeping their starting lineup fit. I would say that having too many changes in the lineup every week or month can unsettle the squad and cause problems both tactically and psychologically.
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    (Original post by dairychocolate)
    I still don't buy it. We were lucky not to concede twice before we scored and Carroll's goals were just a continuation of the poor defensive quality (and arguably also goalkeeping on the second- great decision by Wenger to play Ospina over a fit Cech) we had shown from the start of the game. People will fit events to their preconceived opinions. You fit it to the 'bottler' narrative. I fit it to the 'poor GK selection and a defence which has been declining since 13/14' narrative.
    You could see the goals coming from the start of the game with how shaky the defence was on crosses.

    My problem with the 'mentality' argument is that it's too difficult to actually identify it during a game and becomes a lazy, go-to explanation for everything. It's far more worthwhile to look at issues with the tactics, playing style and player quality etc. which are, IMO, bigger issues at the club.

    But then I guess it comes down to the manager, anyway, so who gives a ****? No point nitpicking as the people who should take the blame are the same regardless.
    When I talk about mentality, I am referring to a lack of leadership and grit. I agree with your assessment that the defence struggles with crosses, and Wenger does make bad tactical decisions increasingly often. However, you cannot tell me your squad is not good enough. Leicester are top of the league and their squad is far inferior to yours. However, they have huge leaders in Huth, Morgan and Schmeichel and then Kante and Vardy who really lead by example, which allows them to push through these tough moments. Your squad does not have that. Sanchez always puts in a shift but that's about it. When Arsenal are up against it they have no leader to invigorate them, and thus they crumble. After that first Carroll goal somebody should have given that defence an absolute *******ing. How do you think Keane, Vieira or Terry would have reacted? Arsenal have the belief that they are Barca v2.0 and can just outplay teams and not worry about grit. That's wrong and it's a fundamental problem that needs addressing before we start discussing tactics, players and other small details.







    You need to understand that your team will not always play well, but if you want to be champions you need to win regardless. Two or three leaders would transform this Arsenal team and would allow them to push through these tough moments and collect 3 points even when they don't deserve them.

    Look at us. We've played **** for most of this season, with players in the wrong positions and kids running the show, but we could potentially be 3pts behind you after tomorrow. Why is that? We collect points when we don't deserve them.
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    (Original post by shawn_o1)
    Chelsea last season and Leicester this season have had high-scoring starts to their season which gradually shifted to 1-0 wins as they closed in on title glory. They were able to achieve this by keeping their starting lineup fit. I would say that having too many changes in the lineup every week or month can unsettle the squad and cause problems both tactically and psychologically.
    Yeah, you're right that fitness is a vital factor but I think Chelsea could've made it a lot easier than it was by rotating more or having a larger squad, because then they wouldn't have to grind out so many wins. Far too many times we were relying on Hazard's technical ability and whatnot to guide us out of problems or few moments of individual brilliance. Having other options available would ease the pressure of these kind of players because (1) it's obvious fatigue will kick in so other players will need to do some of the work (2) the fatigue will not only affect their ability but perhaps also their confidence in the sense that they'll noticeably not perform as better (3) added to the fact that because they're often providing the moments of defence-opening, goals, assists, etc. and will need to do so when the pressure is greater from the expectation of trying to win the league which in turn justs adds even more pressure on them in combination with (2)

    Leicester have little choice in this since their squad is inferior to the Chelsea of last season in terms of ability, size and resources to compete (but there's little pressure on them for a few reasons compared to a team like Chelsea or Arsenal so that obviously helps)

    Nonetheless, you'll also in Leicester's season this year where a few other players who don't normally provide the goals/assists have to chip in with a few (e.g. Ulloa vs Norwich, King vs West Brom or Okazaki) so changes, especially towards the latter part of the season, are necessary. It's only problematic when these changes are done either too abruptly or too much en masse where it distorts the first XI harmony, rather than incrementally (so should be begun in earlier parts of the season when things are going pretty well, which Leicester had done)

    Slightly different for Arsenal though since you lot seem to have endless amounts of injuries, I guess -- so you haven't been able to rotate as effectively. Anyways, gone on a bit of a tangent here
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    Oh wow, Arsenal lost that match about 5-3 and with 11 men, not the 10 they should've had.

    I don't buy into conspiracy theories, but that was a really biased ref performance. He gained Arsenal a point, cost West Ham another couple. Normally I wouldn't even question this kind of thing, but we've seen enough from the past few years to know that fixing happens in England and the politics of football aren't exactly pure.
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    (Original post by ozzyoscy)
    Oh wow, Arsenal lost that match about 5-3 and with 11 men, not the 10 they should've had.

    I don't buy into conspiracy theories, but that was a really biased ref performance. He gained Arsenal a point, cost West Ham another couple. Normally I wouldn't even question this kind of thing, but we've seen enough from the past few years to know that fixing happens in England and the politics of football aren't exactly pure.
    Carroll arguably should have been off after 3 minutes ffs.
    There's **** calls in every game, for example we had a goal disallowed vs Liverpool which should have stood. I'm not going to talk bs and say that it evens out over the season, because it normally doesn't (Leicester have had an outrageous amount of decisions go their way), but there's a lot of memory bias when looking at decisions.
    Also, there was arguably a foul in the build up to their 2nd, looked like the ref played advantage Arsenal, then stopped it after Iwobi lost possession, and the second disallowed goal looked a foul.
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    (Original post by shawn_o1)
    Chelsea last season and Leicester this season have had high-scoring starts to their season which gradually shifted to 1-0 wins as they closed in on title glory. They were able to achieve this by keeping their starting lineup fit. I would say that having too many changes in the lineup every week or month can unsettle the squad and cause problems both tactically and psychologically.
    Chelsea probably would have got more points and got further in the champions league had the team actually been rotated. Yeah for half a season it provides continuity but you can see from e.g. Real last season what a lack of rotation can do and from Barcelona last season how rotating the squad earlier on can keep the squad fresh for the big stretch of the season.
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    Don't hate on Caroll he's a ****ing beast.

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    (Original post by Jimmy Seville)
    Yet the same thing happens year after year. You've addressed all those points (some more than others) and the only consistent factor in Arsenal's struggles in the last few years is lack of a strong mentality when the pressure for titles is on.
    The other consistent factor is the strongest mentality I've ever seen when the pressure for Champions League football next season is on.
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    Sick of hearing the anti Arsenal, English bias that spews from Danny Mills mouth every week on motd. If Giroud had made the challenge Carroll did 3 minutes in and on an English defender and Mills would have been demanding a 3 game ban. Awful challenge that yet again was glossed over due to English bias. Not quite as bad as the Drinkwater one which was absolutely laughable, but still not good enough from motd to do this every week.
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    (Original post by Manchester United)
    When I talk about mentality, I am referring to a lack of leadership and grit. I agree with your assessment that the defence struggles with crosses, and Wenger does make bad tactical decisions increasingly often. However, you cannot tell me your squad is not good enough. Leicester are top of the league and their squad is far inferior to yours. However, they have huge leaders in Huth, Morgan and Schmeichel and then Kante and Vardy who really lead by example, which allows them to push through these tough moments. Your squad does not have that. Sanchez always puts in a shift but that's about it. When Arsenal are up against it they have no leader to invigorate them, and thus they crumble. After that first Carroll goal somebody should have given that defence an absolute *******ing. How do you think Keane, Vieira or Terry would have reacted? Arsenal have the belief that they are Barca v2.0 and can just outplay teams and not worry about grit. That's wrong and it's a fundamental problem that needs addressing before we start discussing tactics, players and other small details.

    [YOUTUBE]LLGUrLXAjA0[YOUTUBE]

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    You need to understand that your team will not always play well, but if you want to be champions you need to win regardless. Two or three leaders would transform this Arsenal team and would allow them to push through these tough moments and collect 3 points even when they don't deserve them.

    Look at us. We've played **** for most of this season, with players in the wrong positions and kids running the show, but we could potentially be 3pts behind you after tomorrow. Why is that? We collect points when we don't deserve them.
    Leicester's squad is inferior on paper but they've kept literally everyone fit, have had significantly fewer fixtures, better tactics and, for most of the season, no pressure. It doesn't matter how many 'leaders' they have, they wouldn't be where they are if Kante had missed as much of the season as Cazorla (don't even get me started on the other injuries).

    The bit about 'a leader to motivate them when things get tough' is always thrown around but, last season, I believe we were the team who turned around the most losing positions in the league and that was without Cech (who fits the 'leader' mould) and without Coquelin (who fits the British pundits' 'fighter' mould) for most of the season.

    Arsenal doesn't believe that we can just use Barca tactics, which is why we play more conservatively in big away games and why our passing football has steadily declined since the Fab-RvP days. Even if were set up to play like Barca, that's a tactical issue.

    We often collect points when we don't deserve any. Not sure what more I can say about that. The 'Arsenal only win when they play beautiful football and dominate the opponent' mantra is cliched BS.

    United have just played an unattractive style of play that makes them look worse than their results.
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    Same old. Had the game under our thumb and we threw it away. More concerned about Spurs finishing above us and United gaining on us tbh, said months ago we weren't gonna win the title after we bottled it at Anfield. You could see the same mistakes creeping in and it was only a matter of time before everyone else saw it too.

    Wenger really needs to go now, he needs to stop soiling his legacy and just accept he can't take this club any further. The players really let him down once again but at the end of the day, they're his players and there's not much more to be said about it.
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    On the last day of the 2003/04 season we beat Leicester on the final day, who were relegated. Now they're about to win the league before us.
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    Why would West Ham want Zlatan when they got Caroll?
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    (Original post by SA-1)
    Why would West Ham want Zlatan when they got Caroll?
    Andy Carrohimovic

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    So it looks like we saved money on not signing schniderline.

    Wenger just go upstairs mate, become director of football already ffs.
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    schniderline
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    (Original post by atom y humber)
    So it looks like we saved money on not signing schniderline.

    Wenger just go upstairs mate, become director of football already ffs.
    I don't want him anywhere near our football club. He has an economics degree, as the AKB's love to remind everyone (as if that makes him a better or worse manager - major straw clutching). He should go join a bank or something.
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    Wenger should go just for allowing Spurs to finish above us. They are not going to repeat their car crash Summer of 2013, now that a CL spot is pretty much in the bag for them they do not need to sell their best players.
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    (Original post by ClockEnderAFC)
    On the last day of the 2003/04 season we beat Leicester on the final day, who were relegated. Now they're about to win the league before us.
 
 
 
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