Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Choo.choo
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#6561
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#6561
(Original post by L i b)
Christ alive, some people really don't know even modern history...
They haven't won it since at least the 1950's, maybe before, but they certainly haven't won it since then.

(Original post by L i b)
No they didn't. We've been through this before. Every single known polling company predicted a decisive SNP win the run-up to the 2011 election. You've told a lie there, and not even a clever one.
So the party that wins the election does not become the government, then?
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Choo.choo
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#6562
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#6562
(Original post by L i b)
What austerity measures? The Government is currently spending billions upon billions more than we raise in taxes. On what possible measure could you call that "austerity"? To me, it sounds like the sort of lavish spending most commonly associated with sailors arriving in port.
Eh, where have you been? So the government haven't been cutting things then? Nobody is being made redundant? People are not having their benefits taken from them? Don't kid yourself.

(Original post by L i b)
If "Currently, we see evidence of the true extent of the damage that Westminster are doing to this country", then perhaps you can tell me why the last annual child poverty figures showed a drop of 20,000 in the number of children in Scotland in poverty? Presumably this is evidence of the contrary.
That is likely because the Scottish Government are having to spend money, or should I say having to take money from other budgets to mitigate the effects of, for example, the bedroom tax.

(Original post by L i b)
The 'no camp' is not producing a white paper on the future of Britain because the parties disagree on what that future should be. The Yes Scotland group didn't produce the white paper - a political party, the SNP, did.
So you are saying it has taken them nearly two years, and they still cannot decide? The referendum is just over 6 months away.
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L i b
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#6563
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#6563
(Original post by Choo.choo)
They haven't won it since at least the 1950's, maybe before, but they certainly haven't won it since then.
In other words "I was wrong".

So the party that wins the election does not become the government, then?
I think you need to go back and re-read that. You said Labour was predicted by the polls to win the 2011 election. It wasn't. The SNP was, and that's what happened.

(Original post by Choo.choo)
Eh, where have you been? So the government haven't been cutting things then? Nobody is being made redundant? People are not having their benefits taken from them? Don't kid yourself.
Whether that's true or not is irrelevant. Governments always make people redundant. The Scottish Government is, for example, keeping the NHS budget (thanks to Westminster grants through the Barnett Formula) increasing slightly in real terms. However they have cut the number of nurses enormously. That's not austerity, but actually of increasing the money spent on something!

So, no, none of that constitutes evidence of anything. I've given you facts - you've given me irrelevancies. Spending billions more than you make in taxes is not austerity, it's lavish spending.

That is likely because the Scottish Government are having to spend money, or should I say having to take money from other budgets to mitigate the effects of, for example, the bedroom tax.
Really? Because even the most recent figures do not take account of any spending by the Scottish Government on DHPs at all - that was after they were compiled. Anyway, you've yet to tell me why that would reduce numbers if indeed those policies were ones solely of mitigation.

Or even why, if the SNP had policy levers to do so, that it was dependent on Westminster welfare changes to implement measures that would reduce childhood poverty.

Let's not forget though that you said "we see evidence of the true extent of the damage that Westminster are doing to this country" and your foremost example was child poverty. Well, it's gone down. So exactly what you were trying to get at, I have no idea.

So you are saying it has taken them nearly two years, and they still cannot decide? The referendum is just over 6 months away.
Er, no, political parties have had manifestos for a very long time. Their visions for the future have always been readily accessible.
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Choo.choo
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#6564
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#6564
(Original post by L i b)
I think you need to go back and re-read that. You said Labour was predicted by the polls to win the 2011 election. It wasn't. The SNP was, and that's what happened.
Actually, the polls did, inaccurately, predict Labour to win the Scottish election in 2011. The SNP won a landslide.

(Original post by L i b)
Whether that's true or not is irrelevant. Governments always make people redundant. The Scottish Government is, for example, keeping the NHS budget (thanks to Westminster grants through the Barnett Formula) increasing slightly in real terms. However they have cut the number of nurses enormously. That's not austerity, but actually of increasing the money spent on something!
You are right that governments often make poor decisions, if that is what you are implying here. I do not think the Scottish Government will make the same decisions as a Westminster Government. Scotland badly needs investment, as I have already said.

(Original post by L i b)
So, no, none of that constitutes evidence of anything. I've given you facts - you've given me irrelevancies. Spending billions more than you make in taxes is not austerity, it's lavish spending.
That sounds like the UK Government you are describing. They spend at least £100billion more than it takes in tax, creating a deficit. Scotland has a deficit of something like £7billion. You don't think that independence would enable the Scottish Government to close that gap?

(Original post by L i b)
Let's not forget though that you said "we see evidence of the true extent of the damage that Westminster are doing to this country" and your foremost example was child poverty. Well, it's gone down. So exactly what you were trying to get at, I have no idea.
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Child poverty is an example of the damage that the UK Government are doing. Why on earth do we have foodbanks in a rich country like Scotland. Scotland, if outside the UK, would be 6th on the OECD. As part of the UK, it goes down to 17. Ridiculous. Independence all the way.
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Teaddict
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#6565
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#6565
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Actually, the polls did, inaccurately, predict Labour to win the Scottish election in 2011. The SNP won a landslide.
http://www.scotlandvotes.com/holyrood/opinion-polls

This is a list of the opinion polls before the Holyrood elections. What you notice is that the closer to the election we got, the more opinion polls predicting an SNP victory. The polls predicted an SNP victory and that is what we got. Like L i b has suggested, you are either lying or totally mistaken.


That sounds like the UK Government you are describing. They spend at least £100billion more than it takes in tax, creating a deficit. Scotland has a deficit of something like £7billion. You don't think that independence would enable the Scottish Government to close that gap?
Part of the UK deficit is spent on Scotland. Consider that the Scottish benefit from the defence and foreign and commonwealth budgets just the same as those in England. Consider that the massive bank bailouts primarily benefited Scotland. This is not exhaustive, but when you make comments like these, you must consider alternative methods that Scotland has benefited from.


Why on earth do we have foodbanks in a rich country like Scotland.
Why not ask the Germans? As a share of the population, Germany has more foodbanks than Britain.


(Original post by Choo.choo)
x.
Genuine question: Are you a 14-year old mouthpiece for the SNP?
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Quady
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#6566
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#6566
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Actually, the polls did, inaccurately, predict Labour to win the Scottish election in 2011. The SNP won a landslide.


You are right that governments often make poor decisions, if that is what you are implying here. I do not think the Scottish Government will make the same decisions as a Westminster Government. Scotland badly needs investment, as I have already said.


That sounds like the UK Government you are describing. They spend at least £100billion more than it takes in tax, creating a deficit. Scotland has a deficit of something like £7billion. You don't think that independence would enable the Scottish Government to close that gap?


Child poverty is an example of the damage that the UK Government are doing. Why on earth do we have foodbanks in a rich country like Scotland. Scotland, if outside the UK, would be 6th on the OECD. As part of the UK, it goes down to 17. Ridiculous. Independence all the way.
These are a bit incompatible thingsyou know...
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Choo.choo
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#6567
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#6567
(Original post by Quady)
These are a bit incompatible thingsyou know...
So they should cut things then? Take a leaf out of Westminster's book?
You need to spend money to make money, do you not? Isn't that how investment works? Investment that generates income of course.
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Quady
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#6568
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#6568
(Original post by Choo.choo)
So they should cut things then? Take a leaf out of Westminster's book?
You need to spend money to make money, do you not? Isn't that how investment works? Investment that generates income of course.
I didn't say that, just pointing out they are mutually exclusive.

Investment does (if int he right things blah, blah, blah) yes. But that only happens after five+ years.

In the meantime the deficit is larger.

I was just pointing out you can't have your cake and eat it.

I don't know what type of investment you were thinking of, but it could be collosal. You can pour £30m+ into a subsection Govanhill and it will only scatch the surface.
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/3...4324n.22824353
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DOM Alpha Badboy
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#6569
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#6569
Bad thing for England, good thing for Scotland outside of some orange bigots from Glasgow.
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Good bloke
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#6570
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#6570
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Actually, the polls did, inaccurately, predict Labour to win the Scottish election in 2011. The SNP won a landslide.
You are drivelling. The polls clearly predicted an SNP victory from a month before the election.

Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion...election,_2011
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Midlander
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#6571
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#6571
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
Bad thing for England, good thing for Scotland outside of some orange bigots from Glasgow.
Why is England tantamount to RUK? Was Sturgeon your geography teacher?


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DOM Alpha Badboy
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#6572
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#6572
(Original post by Midlander)
Why is England tantamount to RUK? Was Sturgeon your geography teacher?


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Did I say England was tantamount to the rest of the UK?
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MatureStudent36
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#6573
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#6573
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Why are you against independence? Independence is the best thing that could happen to Scotland. Why do you think the union works? Why are the London elite so keen to hang onto Scotland? Why don't they just let us go? Westminster only want to hang onto Scotland for one reason: money.
You feel that its the best thing for Scotland. Fortunately most if us realise that it won't.
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MatureStudent36
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#6574
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#6574
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
Bad thing for England, good thing for Scotland outside of some orange bigots from Glasgow.
At 53% supporting the union, there must be an awful lot of orange bigots in Glasgow.

(From a catholic from Edinburgh. Care to try and offend anybody else who disagrees with your minority viewpoint?)
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hj.Foster
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#6575
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#6575
The rest of Britain would be buggered, Scotland holds a lot of Labour voters. As much as I hate Labour, I do not want the Tories to have an advantage.
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DOM Alpha Badboy
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#6576
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#6576
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
At 53% supporting the union, there must be an awful lot of orange bigots in Glasgow.

(From a catholic from Edinburgh. Care to try and offend anybody else who disagrees with your minority viewpoint?)
Maturestudent, lib and midlander. You guys seem to be spamming the thread. Insecure are we?

I don't listen to the results of biased polls done by 1,000 or so Scottish people. I'll wait till the result comes out, thanks.
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MatureStudent36
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#6577
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#6577
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Actually, the polls did, inaccurately, predict Labour to win the Scottish election in 2011. The SNP won a landslide.


You are right that governments often make poor decisions, if that is what you are implying here. I do not think the Scottish Government will make the same decisions as a Westminster Government. Scotland badly needs investment, as I have already said.


That sounds like the UK Government you are describing. They spend at least £100billion more than it takes in tax, creating a deficit. Scotland has a deficit of something like £7billion. You don't think that independence would enable the Scottish Government to close that gap?


Child poverty is an example of the damage that the UK Government are doing. Why on earth do we have foodbanks in a rich country like Scotland. Scotland, if outside the UK, would be 6th on the OECD. As part of the UK, it goes down to 17. Ridiculous. Independence all the way.
The opinion polls didn't predict anything of the sort.

Everywhere requires investment. But so far the SNPs neverendum has created an investment where investment is unlikely due to uncertainty.

Be careful of banding around SNP financial numbers. They're normally inaccurate and fail to take into account many factors. You're OECD numbers were identified to be flawed many months ago. They came from an SNP press release.
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MatureStudent36
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#6578
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#6578
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
Maturestudent, lib and midlander. You guys seem to be spamming the thread. Insecure are we?

I don't listen to the results of biased polls done by 1,000 or so Scottish people. I'll wait till the result comes out, thanks.
Glad to hear you'll
Wait until the results come in?

Hopefully you'll then realise that the rubbish your spouting isn't the general concesus.
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Good bloke
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#6579
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#6579
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
I don't listen to the results of biased polls done by 1,000 or so Scottish people. I'll wait till the result comes out, thanks.
These biased polls presumably include the ones conducted on behalf of the SNP, and which unanimously predict a victory for the No campaign.
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Good bloke
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#6580
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#6580
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Why do you continually taunt the SNP for the length of the referendum, yet you do not criticise the no camp for not producing a White Paper on the no side? We are still waiting to hear from Labour about more devolution. Isn't it funny how it takes the possibility of home rule for Scotland, for Labour to produce more devolution?
A vote for No isn't a vote for more devolution. More devolution isn't an option being offered. If you want more power in Scotland vote Yes. A No vote is a vote for the status quo. No white paper is needed for the status quo.
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