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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    You seem to inhabit a reality-free zone.

    The facts are that Russian soldiers and FSB operatives have been directly involved in subversion in Ukraine since the get-go. There have been numerous cases of Russian soldiers being identified operating there and many actions have been co-ordinated directly from Moscow. There is no reason to think that the use of SAM missiles would be any different.

    In fact, it's more logical to believe that a Russian team would be involved in staffing the launcher. Why would Moscow risk sending hi-tech weapons systems across to the rebels without proper supervision? Much more sensible to send them in with military or deniable pseudo-civilian-but-in-fact-military units.

    I suspect this is a classic case of incompetent Russian soldiers performing callous and gung-ho acts. Maybe they were drunk at the time - drunkenness remains an endemic problem throughout the Russian armed forces, partly as a side effect of the brutalising experiences young soldiers go through their during their 'training'.
    Why would the Russians provide a team to help operate a system stolen from the Ukraine that the rebels could use anyway?

    You are ridiculously biased. Do you even read what you're writing?


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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    You seem to inhabit a reality-free zone.
    By not trying to blame everything on the people the media want you to?

    The facts are that Russian soldiers and FSB operatives have been directly involved in subversion in Ukraine since the get-go. There have been numerous cases of Russian soldiers being identified operating there and many actions have been co-ordinated directly from Moscow. There is no reason to think that the use of SAM missiles would be any different.
    According to whom? The Ukrainian "government"?

    In fact, it's more logical to believe that a Russian team would be involved in staffing the launcher. Why would Moscow risk sending hi-tech weapons systems across to the rebels without proper supervision? Much more sensible to send them in with military or deniable pseudo-civilian-but-in-fact-military units.
    It's more logical that it wouldn't be the Russians operating it, they would know how to tell the difference between civilian and military aircraft and thus the incident would never have happened. The fact that it did happen implies that the operator didn't know how to fully utilise the system. Nobody in their right mind on the separatist side would have made the shot knowing it was civilian given that they are the obvious suspect and it would be near impossible to pin it directly on the "government" forces.

    I suspect this is a classic case of incompetent Russian soldiers performing callous and gung-ho acts. Maybe they were drunk at the time - drunkenness remains an endemic problem throughout the Russian armed forces, partly as a side effect of the brutalising experiences young soldiers go through their during their 'training'.
    It's so much of an unverifiable epidemic of incompetence that they have been just as capable a fighting force as many, maybe all, of the other large militaries in the world for nearing a century now.
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    (Original post by DErasmus)
    That was precisely my point as for the international body have you not been following the news? http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...r-russia-grows

    "Borodai said that the Donetsk People's Republic was expecting a team of 81 international experts, including 20 Malaysians specialists, who would "probably arrive tomorrow evening". The rebel leader said he did not know why the international community had not responded quicker to the incident. "I cannot understand why the experts cannot come here immediately, we are not an island, it should be easy for them to come here," he told press."
    No, that was my point.

    Your point was Ukrainians who want to use public outrage as a pretext for war so they can seize the Crimea back, which is idiotic.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    No, that was my point.

    Your point was Ukrainians who want to use public outrage as a pretext for war so they can seize the Crimea back, which is idiotic.
    I don't understand what you're saying. Are you actually saying the Ukranian government is, or could not use this incident to incite military action (a dutch newspaper has already called for Nato intervention). I don't think you understand the situation if you think there are good and bad guys, Ukraine has killed many in the conflict already although this is whitewashed by the news, it continues to push 'evidence' (propaganda) and make allegations without having assessed it, and has yet to offer a ceasefire despite the fact the bodies from the plane need to be collected. Not to mention the international commite have not yet turned up because they fear for their safety (maybe something to do with Kiev aggrevation since journalists can move around freely?)
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    (Original post by DErasmus)
    I don't understand wh...........sts can move around freely?)
    I am saying a Ukrainian isn't going to be stupid enough to start a war of Crimea in any instance.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    I am saying a Ukrainian isn't going to be stupid enough to start a war of Crimea in any instance.
    Are you following the Ukranian nationalist sentiment? I'm not accusing them of fascism but one cannot deny the ultranationalism of many of its members (it has been acknowledged by many political scientists), there has yet to be any details from the Ukraine government agreeing to the federalisation of the Ukraine (the Russian three point plan, google it if you wish). Not to mention Ukraine have already cut water and electricity to many eastern areas, it seems to me that Ukraine wants its land back.
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    Russian Defence ministry delivered some hard hitting facts on RT news. The information was very damning I have to say. The Ukranian goverment have a lot of explaining to do.

    This is the first solid evidence that has been uncovered from this massacre.
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    (Original post by CallItWhatUWant)
    Russian Defence ministry delivered some hard hitting facts on RT news. The information was very damning I have to say. The Ukranian goverment have a lot of explaining to do.

    This is the first solid evidence that has been uncovered from this massacre.
    Post the evidence please.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Post the evidence please.
    Russia are saying there was a Ukrainian SU25 near the jet before it was taken down
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Post the evidence please.
    Well you know, the Russians have had 96+hrs to come up with smoke and mirrors and as always, these are the tactics Putin likes to play the most: sow seeds of doubt and exploit weakness by dividing the international community, deny everything, delay, delay, delay.

    There are a few square miles in Eastern Ukraine, full of solid evidence, which the international community has been kept from accessing while the Putin's stories are concocted and anything incriminating is destroyed.
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    (Original post by uberteknik)
    Well you know, the Russians have had 96+hrs to come up with smoke and mirrors and as always, these are the tactics Putin likes to play the most: sow seeds of doubt and exploit weakness by dividing the international community, deny everything, delay, delay, delay.

    There are a few square miles in Eastern Ukraine, full of solid evidence, which the international community has been kept from accessing while the Putin's stories are concocted and anything incriminating is destroyed.
    Not just putin, western governments would do the same if the tables were turned.

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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Russia are saying there was a Ukrainian SU25 near the jet before it was taken down
    Imagine my surprise. It would be very easy for air investigation analysts to prove a Buk missile shot down MH17 from aircraft fragments showing distinctive damage.

    75Kg of H.E. continuous rod warhead leaves a far bigger footprint than the 3 or 4Kg heat seeking fragmentation warhead of air to air missiles which must also detonate at a closer range or actually impact. Additionally, it is unlikely that an air-to-air missile with frag warhead would inflict such catastrophic damage to totally incapacitate the crew before they could transmit a mayday. (Possible but improbable considering the fuel tanks did not appear to rupture and explode at altitude.)

    If there was an Su25 in the air where the Russians say it was, wait for the next conspiracy that says the Buk crew were attempting to down the SU25 and not MH17 but the missile is terminal phase autonomous homing and locked on to the bigger target. Or that the Su25 was using MH17 to hide behind. Or Putin was supposed to be flying at that time and the (non existent?) SU25 shot it down thinking he was on board.

    Playing for time to hold on the evidence and manipulate it - which includes the black box data and voice recorders, fabricated satellite images, fabricated Radar tracks and parts of the airframe and/or passengers with shrapnel evidence.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Russia are saying there was a Ukrainian SU25 near the jet before it was taken down
    And did they have anything to support this claim? I'm guessing no :lol:
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    Ugh, Malaysian Airlines are doing themselves no favours if what THIS article says is true (It's in French btw). If you don't want to read it, long story short, yesterday a London-bound plane from Kuala Lumpur flew over Syrian airspace.

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...r-la-syrie.php
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    (Original post by gagaslilmonsteruk)
    Ugh, Malaysian Airlines are doing themselves no favours if what THIS article says is true (It's in French btw). If you don't want to read it, long story short, yesterday a London-bound plane from Kuala Lumpur flew over Syrian airspace.

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...r-la-syrie.php
    They're gonna have to do a massive rebrand anyway. If this wasn't a government owned company they would be going out of business pretty quickly.


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    (Original post by gagaslilmonsteruk)
    Ugh, Malaysian Airlines are doing themselves no favours if what THIS article says is true (It's in French btw). If you don't want to read it, long story short, yesterday a London-bound plane from Kuala Lumpur flew over Syrian airspace.

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...r-la-syrie.php
    Airliners regularly fly over war zones. Like Afghanistan.

    There is no reason not to fly over Syria.

    It is not as if the rebels are using cargo planes regularly that would be shot down by Syrian forces.
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    (Original post by uberteknik)
    Well you know, the Russians have had 96+hrs to come up with smoke and mirrors and as always, these are the tactics Putin likes to play the most: sow seeds of doubt and exploit weakness by dividing the international community, deny everything, delay, delay, delay.

    There are a few square miles in Eastern Ukraine, full of solid evidence, which the international community has been kept from accessing while the Putin's stories are concocted and anything incriminating is destroyed.
    "I think the storage of the bodies is (of) good quality," Peter Van Vliet, the forensic expert leading the Dutch team.

    http://news.yahoo.com/rebels-guarant...064257196.html

    You're being fed propaganda from idiots who are using the narrative as a pretext for war, as usual the media pretend to be impartial but are manipulated to present the situation 'as though its all Russias fault' because that sells more, the truth is the rebels have done a good job at preserving the bodies despite the fact Ukraine have cut water and electricity from these people, the international community has not denied access, Kiev has that's why the journalists have been there all along whereas the international community had to 'wait until it was safe'. Hang on a minute no call for a ceasefire from the Ukraine government? oh.
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    "The UN Security Council is expected to adopt an Australia-backed resolution demanding pro-Russian separatists grant unrestricted access to the crash site to international experts when it meets at 1900 GMT."

    Would you look at that? Even after a Dutch specialist has said the rebels are doing a good job, these people want war, and are manipulating any oppurtunity to get it.

    Our 'leaders' are completely incompetent.
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    (Original post by DErasmus)
    Are you following the Ukranian nationalist sentiment? I'm not accusing them of fascism but one cannot deny the ultranationalism of many of its members (it has been acknowledged by many political scientists), there has yet to be any details from the Ukraine government agreeing to the federalisation of the Ukraine (the Russian three point plan, google it if you wish). Not to mention Ukraine have already cut water and electricity to many eastern areas, it seems to me that Ukraine wants its land back.
    Stop rambling. That has nothing to do with what I said.

    The Ukrainians do not need or want a pretext to enter Crimea because such a move would be idiotic.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Stop rambling. That has nothing to do with what I said.

    The Ukrainians do not need or want a pretext to enter Crimea because such a move would be idiotic.
    Sure! Deny all the evidence, like the UN meeting to discuss deploying Nato troops to remove the bodies, like the Ukrainian government disrupting the investigation with its 'self-organised' militas (are you actually reading the news?).

    I'm not going to reply to you anymore as you don't understand the situation enough, which is why you've completely dismissed my posts and responded with one line 'blah blah who needs evidence' posts everytime.

    I am rambling because civilians are being killed, and entire nations being victimised before we have facts, because of idiots like you who fail to exercise basic critical thought.
 
 
 
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