Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
This discussion is closed.
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6581
Report 5 years ago
#6581
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
Did I say England was tantamount to the rest of the UK?
You say it'd be a bad thing for England but not Wales and Northern Ireland.


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6582
Report 5 years ago
#6582
(Original post by hj.Foster)
The rest of Britain would be buggered, Scotland holds a lot of Labour voters. As much as I hate Labour, I do not want the Tories to have an advantage.
Labour has not needed Scotland to get in in the majority of its election victories. If England votes for a Labour majority then that is what the UK gets as the number of seats there dwarfs the other constituents.


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6583
Report 5 years ago
#6583
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Actually, the polls did, inaccurately, predict Labour to win the Scottish election in 2011. The SNP won a landslide.
Teaddict has adequately dealt with this.


You are right that governments often make poor decisions, if that is what you are implying here. I do not think the Scottish Government will make the same decisions as a Westminster Government. Scotland badly needs investment, as I have already said.
No, I'm saying that you have in no way evidenced 'austerity'. This is because there is none and the UK is, in point of fact, spending far too much.

That sounds like the UK Government you are describing. They spend at least £100billion more than it takes in tax, creating a deficit. Scotland has a deficit of something like £7billion. You don't think that independence would enable the Scottish Government to close that gap?
No, I think it would enable them to hugely inflate that gap. To quote the IFS "it is worth noting, however, that the majority of policies so far mooted by the current SNP government for after independence would cost, rather than save, money".

I think that figure would be enormously increased through a combination of poor planning, a lack of analysis of the costs of independence taking place and poor economic decisions by the SNP administration.

Child poverty is an example of the damage that the UK Government are doing. Why on earth do we have foodbanks in a rich country like Scotland. Scotland, if outside the UK, would be 6th on the OECD. As part of the UK, it goes down to 17. Ridiculous. Independence all the way.
I'm not sure what part of this you don't understand. I've just told you child poverty decreased by 20,000 in Scotland last year. There's less of it.

Sixth what on the OCED? Based on what figures? If you're going to try and use those diddled SNP figures to make a point about GDP you should probably note that (1) Scotland's GDP now will not be its GDP in the future; (2) GDP is a poor measure of national wealth and (3) the figures used by the SNP are not remotely reliable.

So, no, it's not remotely ridiculous.
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6584
Report 5 years ago
#6584
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
Maturestudent, lib and midlander. You guys seem to be spamming the thread. Insecure are we?
This is a message forum for debate and discussion on UK politics. We are discussing UK politics. No-one has 'spammed' anything, indeed spamming would result in our posts being removed by the Moderators.

But thanks for popping in and sharing your religious bigotry. There's not much I really hope for in this ridiculous debate on "Scotland's future", but if we could just manage the basics like keeping ****ing West of Scotland sectarian rubbish from seeping into it, we might at least be able to have something decent to say about the whole episode once it's out of the way.
0
DOM Alpha Badboy
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#6585
Report 5 years ago
#6585
(Original post by L i b)

But thanks for popping in and sharing your religious bigotry. There's not much I really hope for in this ridiculous debate on "Scotland's future", but if we could just manage the basics like keeping ****ing West of Scotland sectarian rubbish from seeping into it, we might at least be able to have something decent to say about the whole episode once it's out of the way.
Religious bigotry? I'd like you to explain that one.
0
Snagprophet
Badges: 17
Rep:
?
#6586
Report 5 years ago
#6586
It's funny how Ireland used to be the SNP's wet dream idol, alongside the whole 'Celtic nation brotherhood' nonsense, yet we hear none of this now. Norway is the new SNP wet dream and it isn't even comparable any more because of the way Norway used their oil. We also hear about 'unique Nordic cultural ties' with Scotland which is rather amusing because another country with Nordic heritage lies directly south, it's neighbour England.
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6587
Report 5 years ago
#6587
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
Religious bigotry? I'd like you to explain that one.
That peculiar crap about the Orange Order, apropos of absolutely nothing. Cut it out, no-one wants it here.
0
DOM Alpha Badboy
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#6588
Report 5 years ago
#6588
(Original post by L i b)
That peculiar crap about the Orange Order, apropos of absolutely nothing. Cut it out, no-one wants it here.
What I said wasn't religious bigotry in the slightest. Think before you type.
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6589
Report 5 years ago
#6589
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
What I said wasn't religious bigotry in the slightest. Think before you type.
Absolute codswallop. If someone comes in ranting about one side of a sectarian divide for no reason whatsoever, bringing that into a debate, then it's bloody relevant. I think we all know fine well it wasn't just a random outburst.

As I've said, we don't want this sort of talk here or anywhere else in Scottish politics. It's an absolute blight on this place.
0
DOM Alpha Badboy
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#6590
Report 5 years ago
#6590
(Original post by L i b)
Absolute codswallop. If someone comes in ranting about one side of a sectarian divide for no reason whatsoever, bringing that into a debate, then it's bloody relevant. I think we all know fine well it wasn't just a random outburst.

As I've said, we don't want this sort of talk here or anywhere else in Scottish politics. It's an absolute blight on this place.
Again it wasn't religious bigotry. Think before you type.

Also you're not the creator of this thread nor a moderator of this forum. Stop talking on the behalf of others. You don't make the rules about what can or can't be posted in this thread.
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6591
Report 5 years ago
#6591
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
Again it wasn't religious bigotry. Think before you type.

Also you're not the creator of this thread nor a moderator of this forum. Stop talking on the behalf of others. You don't make the rules about what can or can't be posted in this thread.
No, but I certainly think I speak for the vast majority of people involved in Scottish politics here. As I've said, it's a blight and we want none of it.

Now, I might be wrong about you, I suppose. It's entirely possible that you randomly blurted out nonsense about the Orange Order just as someone who isn't anti-semitic might make some throwaway reference to the Jews for no good reason whatsoever.

But you know what? I don't buy it. I know enough about human nature to know exactly where you were going with that kind of remark, and it's a very ugly and unpleasant road.
0
MatureStudent36
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#6592
Report 5 years ago
#6592
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
Religious bigotry? I'd like you to explain that one.
Well you were the one that tried to link it to support for voting no. So please feel free to expand on the issue yourself.
0
DOM Alpha Badboy
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#6593
Report 5 years ago
#6593
(Original post by L i b)
No, but I certainly think I speak for the vast majority of people involved in Scottish politics here. As I've said, it's a blight and we want none of it.

Now, I might be wrong about you, I suppose. It's entirely possible that you randomly blurted out nonsense about the Orange Order just as someone who isn't anti-semitic might make some throwaway reference to the Jews for no good reason whatsoever.

But you know what? I don't buy it. I know enough about human nature to know exactly where you were going with that kind of remark, and it's a very ugly and unpleasant road.
Very nice. Could've used some references to Hitler or the Nazis just to make it even sweeter.

The Orange Order isn't a religion. It unfortunately attachs itself to the religion I was raised in. Not to mention I clearly said "some orange bigots". Are you trying to deny the Orange Order has some bigots? I can show plenty of examples showing otherwise if you like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order

I recommend the "Relationship with the Klu Klux Klan" and "Relationship with the Loyalist Paramilitaries" sections.
0
DOM Alpha Badboy
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#6594
Report 5 years ago
#6594
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Well you were the one that tried to link it to support for voting no. So please feel free to expand on the issue yourself.
Are we talking about my reference to the Orange Order?

If so then here's a quote straight from the Orange Order wikipedia:
"Politically, the Orange Order is strongly linked to Unionism"
0
MatureStudent36
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#6595
Report 5 years ago
#6595
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
Are we talking about my reference to the Orange Order?

If so then here's a quote straight from the Orange Order wikipedia:
"Politically, the Orange Order is strongly linked to Unionism"
I'm catholic and am definitely not linked to the orange order and I'll be voting no.

Shall I start making links between nationalism and fascism? The SNP likes to keep that part of its history quiet.

I'll tell you what. If you grow up, act mature and stop trying to sling mud, I won't delve too deeply into the SNP and its supporters less that glorious history.
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6596
Report 5 years ago
#6596
(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
Very nice. Could've used some references to Hitler or the Nazis just to make it even sweeter.

The Orange Order isn't a religion. It unfortunately attachs itself to the religion I was raised in. Not to mention I clearly said "some orange bigots". Are you trying to deny the Orange Order has some bigots? I can show plenty of examples showing otherwise if you like.
I'm sure every significant organisation has bigots in it. The Orange Order is a religious-based organisation. Randomly having a go at it for no reason whatsoever makes you look like a bigot yourself.

And hell, we don't need to go as far as the Nazis, if someone comes in here mouthing off about fenians or the Scots-Irish or whatever, they'd get exactly the same response.

(Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy)
Are we talking about my reference to the Orange Order?

If so then here's a quote straight from the Orange Order wikipedia:
"Politically, the Orange Order is strongly linked to Unionism"
Indeed, they probably are, most religious groups have a broad political slant. I imagine given their membership numbers, it won't be universal though. Not to mention that they opposed the union with Ireland back in the day because they thought it might lead to Catholic emancipation.

People like Ian Paisley are not unionists though. They are Protestant Ulster nationalists, who simply see ties with the UK as relatively convenient. Try imposing UK social policy on them and they'll be up in arms - which is why abortion wasn't decriminalised in NI.
0
Teaddict
Badges: 17
Rep:
?
#6597
Report 5 years ago
#6597
Comment by Peter Kellner of Yougov:

YouGov has conducted four surveys in the past three months. Our latest was conducted last week for the Scottish Sun. Stripping out the (modest) number of don’t knows, each survey has shown 39-40% in favour of independence and 60-61% against.

The ‘yes’ and ‘no’ blocks look equally solid and utterly distinct. They differ completely in their party loyalties and their expectations of what an independent Scotland would look like.

Here’s the evidence. First, party loyalties. SNP supporters divide 90-10% in favour of independence; Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat supporters divide 90-10% against independence. Alex Salmond’s biggest problem is that the three ‘British’ parties collectively outscore the SNP by three-to-two. Hence the three-to-two margin in favour of ‘Better Together’.


Second, how Scots view the practical consequences of Scotland going its own way. Eight out of ten supporters of independence think people like them will become better off; eight out of ten opponents expect to be worse off. On taxes, pensions, schools and Scotland’s influence in the world, ‘yes’ voters expect sharply different things. And those differences are growing, rather than narrowing.



What about Scottish reactions to the joint announcement by the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems that they would reject a currency union with an independent Scotland? By 79-10%, ‘yes’ supporters think London is bluffing; by 73-11%, ‘no’ voters believe London means it.

The story is much the same regarding the likelihood of an independent Scotland staying in the European Union. 70% of ‘yes’ voters reckon that their country would be EU members from day one – a view shared by just 15% of ‘no’ voters

Men divide evenly, 48% for independence, 52% against. In contrast, women divide 68-32% against independence. That excludes don’t knows – and there are many more women (16%) than men (7%) who have yet to take sides. In general, women are more fearful of the practical consequences of independence.


1
Good bloke
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6598
Report 5 years ago
#6598
(Original post by Teaddict)
Comment by Peter Kellner of Yougov:
Interesting analysis. On that basis there won't be much movement.

One of the defining characteristics of this campaign, for me, is the truly astonishing propensity of the SNP to assume that others (the EU, the UN, NATO, UK government, the BoE, the people of Britain) either have views that align with theirs or will ignore their own principles and best interests and do exactly what the SNP says is best for Scotland.

They expect the EU to change its rules and for its members to ignore their own self-interest in order to make Scotland a special case, and the UK is expected to submerge its own best interests and risk its banking system (with the small recompense of transaction costs savings) to give Scotland an easy ride on its currency, for example.

This is exemplified again here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-26424658

What he really means in the subtext, of course, is give us mates' rates when it comes to negotiations. He would be rather disappointed if it ever got to the point where he gets the chance to have such negotiations and I almost wish he did for that reason alone.

I think they'll look back on it and realise they went into the campaign with their arguments and expectations not fully thought through.
2
frazza77
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#6599
Report 5 years ago
#6599
The referendum campaign is very different from what "we" especially those of you south of the border see. Better Together do not draw crowds to meetings, they won't send politicians, activists or councillors to debate in town halls and schools. They simply don't seem to be doing much out with the news studios of central Scotland and central London.

Yes campaigners, whether SNP, Green, SSP, Yes Scotland, Labour for indy or Radical Independence campaigners seem to be struggling to decide where to go because there are events on so frequently. Yes are running events every night of the week and are having Super Saturdays where activists meet in an area and canvass in the streets. Even groups of few people are grabbing a table and a few leaflets and doing a stall outside supermarkets during the week.

It is also true to say that when presented with the evidence, people are more likely to vote Yes. You could also say that the worst things in this are politicians, Salmond is disliked by a lot of undecided voters, even to the point that some Yes campaigners don't like him. On the other hand, he's probably better than Darling, Cameron, Osbourne and the rest of the Tory cabinet who probably couldn't walk most of Scotland's streets without a security team. Real people in jeans and a polo shirt will win this referendum. People don't like the TV and media controlled nature of the debate. They want to ask questions, and with the fact Better Together are non existent on the streets most of the time, Yes will likely get stronger.
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6600
Report 5 years ago
#6600
(Original post by frazza77)
The referendum campaign is very different from what "we" especially those of you south of the border see. Better Together do not draw crowds to meetings, they won't send politicians, activists or councillors to debate in town halls and schools. They simply don't seem to be doing much out with the news studios of central Scotland and central London.

Yes campaigners, whether SNP, Green, SSP, Yes Scotland, Labour for indy or Radical Independence campaigners seem to be struggling to decide where to go because there are events on so frequently. Yes are running events every night of the week and are having Super Saturdays where activists meet in an area and canvass in the streets. Even groups of few people are grabbing a table and a few leaflets and doing a stall outside supermarkets during the week.

It is also true to say that when presented with the evidence, people are more likely to vote Yes. You could also say that the worst things in this are politicians, Salmond is disliked by a lot of undecided voters, even to the point that some Yes campaigners don't like him. On the other hand, he's probably better than Darling, Cameron, Osbourne and the rest of the Tory cabinet who probably couldn't walk most of Scotland's streets without a security team. Real people in jeans and a polo shirt will win this referendum. People don't like the TV and media controlled nature of the debate. They want to ask questions, and with the fact Better Together are non existent on the streets most of the time, Yes will likely get stronger.
Alex Salmond represented Banff and Buchan in Westminster for some time, and is now MSP for it. Given that he has represented the North East for so long, why does his government allocate below average spending to the councils there but above average spending to the central belt?

The region contributes more to the Scottish economy but doesn't benefit accordingly. Makes his comments about uneven distribution of wealth seem a little hypocritical.


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Would you turn to a teacher if you were being bullied?

Yes (94)
24.54%
No (289)
75.46%

Watched Threads

View All