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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    "Their" land? Why did the land belong to the Palestinians (or "Arabs" as they were then known) any more than it belonged to the Zionists? Neither had a country beforehand, after all.

    You avoided the question. Giving any kind of humanitarian aid to a jihadist group is often not a good idea. I won't bother spelling this out any further. What you should be complaining about is the fact that a jihadist group runs the Gaza strip.
    The Arabs already lived there, the Zionists didn't-that is the primary difference. You may also be interested to know that other sites were considered before Palestine, Argentina and Uganda among them.

    I would also like your evidence for Hamas being jihadis. Have they declared themselves to be such like ISIS have? Not even British media calls them such, the worst being 'militants'. At any rate, you would not be providing humanitarian aid for these people but for the civilians trapped in Gaza. The Red Cross still provided aid to Syrians despite the country being ruled by a tyrant so why can't the same go for Palestine? Still we could keep allowing the IDF to snipe children without consequence.


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    (Original post by Midlander)
    The Arabs already lived there, the Zionists didn't-that is the primary difference. You may also be interested to know that other sites were considered before Palestine, Argentina and Uganda among them.

    I would also like your evidence for Hamas being jihadis. Have they declared themselves to be such like ISIS have? Not even British media calls them such, the worst being 'militants'. At any rate, you would not be providing humanitarian aid for these people but for the civilians trapped in Gaza. The Red Cross still provided aid to Syrians despite the country being ruled by a tyrant so why can't the same go for Palestine? Still we could keep allowing the IDF to snipe children without consequence.


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    ISIS hate both the PLO and Hamas due to their nationalist nature I thought?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Didn't they propose multiple border-drawing scenarios? They even proposed one where the Jewish state was a tiny bit at the top, near Lebanon, as I recall.
    I think you're talking about the 1937 Peel Commission, which was turned down by both sides (and even those leading Zionists who did favour it, such as Ben-Gurion, only considered them temporary borders to be expanded later). As with the 1947 Plan, it gave disproportionate land to the proposed Jewish state relative to their population; and furthermore it explicitly called for the 225,000 Arabs living in the area assigned to the Jewish state to be forcibly expelled (while calling for just 1,250 Jews to move in the other direction).

    Clearly all the Jews wanted was a state somewhere in Palestine, and had an Arab state been set up alongside it they would not have gone to war with each other.
    I disagree. I think it's clear that the Zionist leadership wanted at least the bulk of Palestine for a Jewish state and would not have been content with as small a chunk as proposed by Peel (though whether they could have accepted it as a temporary, tactical measure is a different debate).

    Was the plan to subvert the UN's strategy carried out before or after the surrounding Arab states declared war?
    Before. By the time the British left, Israel was declared and the surrounding Arab states got involved, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians had already been forced from their homes. And the idea that the creation of a Jewish state would have to involve forcible expulsion of most of its Arab population (not necessarily all of them, but enough to create an unassailable Jewish demographic majority) was hardly new to Zionist thinking in 1947.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    "Their" land? Why did the land belong to the Palestinians (or "Arabs" as they were then known) any more than it belonged to the Zionists? Neither had a country beforehand, after all.
    There's never been an independent country called Wales either, but few would dispute that the land belongs more to the Welsh people than any hypothetical political movement wanting to take part or all of Wales for recent/future migrants for a different purpose.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Ask Hamas why. The jihadist group running the Gaza strip is why concrete is not allowed into the Gaza strip.

    Israel aren't the aggressors. Palestine could have had a state in peace with Israel since 1948 if they'd accepted the UN's partition plan. They could have had a state since 1993. Why did they choose not to? Because they didn't want a Jewish state on their doorstep. If Israel had been set up as an Islamic state, there would currently be no Israel-Palestine conflict at all.
    Does that justify Israel banning hummus with pine nuts entering too?
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    The Arabs already lived there, the Zionists didn't-that is the primary difference. You may also be interested to know that other sites were considered before Palestine, Argentina and Uganda among them.

    I would also like your evidence for Hamas being jihadis. Have they declared themselves to be such like ISIS have? Not even British media calls them such, the worst being 'militants'. At any rate, you would not be providing humanitarian aid for these people but for the civilians trapped in Gaza. The Red Cross still provided aid to Syrians despite the country being ruled by a tyrant so why can't the same go for Palestine? Still we could keep allowing the IDF to snipe children without consequence.


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    Some Arabs lived there for centuries. Some Jews lived there for centuries. Other Arabs migrated there in the recent past. Other Jews migrated there in the recent past.

    Hamas' ideology is militant Islamism. They are part of the international jihad. They are an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood, a typical jihadist, Islamist organisation. Stop being silly.

    Again, if the IDF really wants to kill children, why is it so bad at doing so? Why is the population of Palestine exploding? (1.8 million in Gaza today, from a few hundred thousand a few decades ago).
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    I think you're talking about the 1937 Peel Commission, which was turned down by both sides (and even those leading Zionists who did favour it, such as Ben-Gurion, only considered them temporary borders to be expanded later). As with the 1947 Plan, it gave disproportionate land to the proposed Jewish state relative to their population; and furthermore it explicitly called for the 225,000 Arabs living in the area assigned to the Jewish state to be forcibly expelled (while calling for just 1,250 Jews to move in the other direction).

    I disagree. I think it's clear that the Zionist leadership wanted at least the bulk of Palestine for a Jewish state and would not have been content with as small a chunk as proposed by Peel (though whether they could have accepted it as a temporary, tactical measure is a different debate).

    Before. By the time the British left, Israel was declared and the surrounding Arab states got involved, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians had already been forced from their homes. And the idea that the creation of a Jewish state would have to involve forcible expulsion of most of its Arab population (not necessarily all of them, but enough to create an unassailable Jewish demographic majority) was hardly new to Zionist thinking in 1947.
    An interesting read. My position is that some crimes were committed and the Arabs did suffer, but nowadays the Israelis have the moral high ground and the Palestinians should try to live in peace and stop fighting wars against Israel. (I.e. stop supporting jihad and start supporting liberal democracy.)
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    There's never been an independent country called Wales either, but few would dispute that the land belongs more to the Welsh people than any hypothetical political movement wanting to take part or all of Wales for recent/future migrants for a different purpose.
    There is a country called Wales though. There was no country called Palestine, it was just a territory claimed by many empires throughout history...
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    (Original post by ridwan12)
    Does that justify Israel banning hummus with pine nuts entering too?
    No, but that's hardly the most important thing.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    An interesting read. My position is that some crimes were committed and the Arabs did suffer, but nowadays the Israelis have the moral high ground and the Palestinians should try to live in peace and stop fighting wars against Israel. (I.e. stop supporting jihad and start supporting liberal democracy.)
    In 1993 the PLO gave up their armed campaign for the promise of a peace deal, the expectation being of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. They didn't get it; not only would the Israelis not make an offer of a properly contiguous and viable state, but they kept building and expanding settlements.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    There is a country called Wales though. There was no country called Palestine, it was just a territory claimed by many empires throughout history...
    Wales was legally treated as part of England right up until after WW2.

    The vast bulk of countries in the world that are former colonies had never existed as countries prior to independence.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Some Arabs lived there for centuries. Some Jews lived there for centuries. Other Arabs migrated there in the recent past. Other Jews migrated there in the recent past.
    Not really in comparable quantities though. According to the 1931 British Mandatory Census, 58% of Jews had been born outside Palestine, compared to just 2% of Muslims.
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    (Original post by LockheedSpooky)
    Oh noes.

    There won't be a 57th Islamic state and 23rd Arab country.

    How will the world cope without this extra enrichment that Arab Muslim states provide the world? :rolleyes:
    Strong argument in favor of an Israeli state, purely out of hate for Muslims and Arabs rather than any logic. Same with all Israhell supporters, though.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Some Arabs lived there for centuries. Some Jews lived there for centuries. Other Arabs migrated there in the recent past. Other Jews migrated there in the recent past.

    Hamas' ideology is militant Islamism. They are part of the international jihad. They are an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood, a typical jihadist, Islamist organisation. Stop being silly.

    Again, if the IDF really wants to kill children, why is it so bad at doing so? Why is the population of Palestine exploding? (1.8 million in Gaza today, from a few hundred thousand a few decades ago).
    I did not claim that is the IDF's primary aim but it is one of many, many war crimes the militant state of Israel has committed in the region. Netanyahu refused to countenance the 2 state solution advocated even by the USA, and so he is ready to continue more bloodshed and blame it on the people hemmed into a scrap of land by the sea.


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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    ISIS hate both the PLO and Hamas due to their nationalist nature I thought?
    ISIS hate everyone, but they are self affirmed jihadists. Typically these organisations shout jihad from the rooftops and are not subtle about it at all. Since our resident shill knows so much about Hamas I am sure they can provide a declaration of jihad from them.


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    (Original post by Midlander)
    I did not claim that is the IDF's primary aim but it is one of many, many war crimes the militant state of Israel has committed in the region. Netanyahu refused to countenance the 2 state solution advocated even by the USA, and so he is ready to continue more bloodshed and blame it on the people hemmed into a scrap of land by the sea.


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    Well they did elect a jihadist group, to be fair.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    In 1993 the PLO gave up their armed campaign for the promise of a peace deal, the expectation being of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. They didn't get it; not only would the Israelis not make an offer of a properly contiguous and viable state, but they kept building and expanding settlements.
    Any wrongs that Israel may have done during the Oslo process were vastly offset by the disgusting jihad that followed during the second intifada. Nothing called for that.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Wales was legally treated as part of England right up until after WW2.

    The vast bulk of countries in the world that are former colonies had never existed as countries prior to independence.
    Yes, that's because the borders were most often drawn by the imperial overlords.

    You make a good point though. Independence for Palestine would turn out a bit like independence for Zimbabwe: it would not make the place any more free.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Not really in comparable quantities though. According to the 1931 British Mandatory Census, 58% of Jews had been born outside Palestine, compared to just 2% of Muslims.
    Isn't that simply because the Arab migrations happened a few decades earlier?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Well they did elect a jihadist group, to be fair.
    Jihadists or not this justifies war crimes how exactly?


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