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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Jihadists or not this justifies war crimes how exactly?


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    The bloodshed in Gaza is directly attributable to Hamas; Hamas were elected by the Palestinians so they can share some of the blame for it.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    The bloodshed in Gaza is directly attributable to Hamas; Hamas were elected by the Palestinians so they can share some of the blame for it.
    Ah I see Hamas sniped the children and shelled their own beach. You are the Mark Regev of TSR, sir.


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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    The bloodshed in Gaza is directly attributable to Hamas; Hamas were elected by the Palestinians so they can share some of the blame for it.
    Using "Je Suis Charlie" as your profile pic is laughable. Terrorism has no creed or nationality. Israeli terror is no better or worse than Islamist terror just because they have a state and a huge military budget bankrolled by Uncle Sam.

    I don't condone Hamas but those who absolve Israel of their sins baffle me. You contribute to a cycle of violence and murder by giving it the Western Civilian stamp of approval.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Yes, that's because the borders were most often drawn by the imperial overlords.
    Not just that; the whole idea of the nation-state was a recent and European one that in most of the world had no real precursors.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Isn't that simply because the Arab migrations happened a few decades earlier?
    Nope.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Nope.
    Nevertheless, there was some Arab migration and some Jewish migration in the period 1800 to 1950. Therefore to claim that the place belongs to Arabs more than it belongs to Jews (or vice versa) is simply racist. (In my opinion it would be racist anyway, but there you go).
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    Using "Je Suis Charlie" as your profile pic is laughable. Terrorism has no creed or nationality. Israeli terror is no better or worse than Islamist terror just because they have a state and a huge military budget bankrolled by Uncle Sam.

    I don't condone Hamas but those who absolve Israel of their sins baffle me. You contribute to a cycle of violence and murder by giving it the Western Civilian stamp of approval.
    The difference between Israeli "terror" and Islamist terror is two-fold:

    1. The Israelis are fighting to preserve a liberal democracy.

    2. The Israelis try not to hit civilians, most of the time. (If their goal was to hit civilians, they would do so much more frequently and in much larger numbers, given their, as you stated, huge military budget).

    Whereas:

    1. Islamists are fighting to establish a totalitarian Islamic state.

    2. Islamists target civilians or innocent people 100% of the time.

    Even if Israel's intent was to kill civilians, it would still be more worth supporting, due to reason #1, than its jihadist opponents.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Ah I see Hamas sniped the children and shelled their own beach. You are the Mark Regev of TSR, sir.


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    Actually I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas put some dead bodies on the beach and claimed they were victims of Israeli shelling.

    That is the sort of thing Hamas does.

    Nevertheless, if Israel did indeed kill those children, on purpose, then it committed a grave crime.

    In any case, I don't claim Israel is perfect, only that it is the side I support.
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    (Original post by Kolasinac138)
    Strong argument in favor of an Israeli state, purely out of hate for Muslims and Arabs rather than any logic. Same with all Israhell supporters, though.
    Or maybe just a hatred for unfree Islamic states where minorities are oppressed and there is no freedom of thought?

    Not wanting a majority to oppress a minority is not the same as hating the majority.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Nevertheless, there was some Arab migration and some Jewish migration in the period 1800 to 1950.
    No, there was a small, not really significant amount of Arab migration and a huge amount of Jewish migration. There's really no comparison.

    In 1947, the combined Muslim-Christian population was about five times what it had been in 1800. The Jewish population was 90 times what it had been.

    Therefore to claim that the place belongs to Arabs more than it belongs to Jews (or vice versa) is simply racist. (In my opinion it would be racist anyway, but there you go).
    I don't believe it belonged (as in this particular case we're talking about what happened in 1947-48 rather than now) to the Arabs more than the Jews as groups, but rather to the long-standing population (which included Sephardi Jews as well as Christians and Muslims) more than the much more recent (largely Ashkenazi Jewish) Zionist settlers. And even with the latter, I'd say it would be fair to draw a further distinction between the earlier settlers (some of whom had been there since the late 19th century) and the very recent arrivals.

    Also, this isn't about the right to live in the land or to have civil or political rights there, but simply about the right to constitute an entirely separate state.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    No, there was a small, not really significant amount of Arab migration and a huge amount of Jewish migration. There's really no comparison.

    In 1947, the combined Muslim-Christian population was about five times what it had been in 1800. The Jewish population was 90 times what it had been.



    I don't believe it belonged (as in this particular case we're talking about what happened in 1947-48 rather than now) to the Arabs more than the Jews as groups, but rather to the long-standing population (which included Sephardi Jews as well as Christians and Muslims) more than the much more recent (largely Ashkenazi Jewish) Zionist settlers. And even with the latter, I'd say it would be fair to draw a further distinction between the earlier settlers (some of whom had been there since the late 19th century) and the very recent arrivals.

    Also, this isn't about the right to live in the land or to have civil or political rights there, but simply about the right to constitute an entirely separate state.
    Well I'm not fussed about anyone's ethnicity, but I am fussed about ideas, which is why I don't want a Palestinian state unless I know it will be at least as liberal and democratic as Israel. In fact I would prefer an Israeli occupation of the West Bank to a state there if it's anything like Gaza.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Actually I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas put some dead bodies on the beach and claimed they were victims of Israeli shelling.

    That is the sort of thing Hamas does.

    Nevertheless, if Israel did indeed kill those children, on purpose, then it committed a grave crime.

    In any case, I don't claim Israel is perfect, only that it is the side I support.
    Do you have any evidence whatsoever for this? The IDF by its own admission has committed widespread crimes during its occupation and the Israeli government has sanctioned illegal settlements being built in the West Bank. Face up to reality, Netanyahu will not stop until he removes all the Arabs from these areas and he doesn't care how he achieves that aim.

    You even support the Palestinians being deprived of food for heaven's sake.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Or maybe just a hatred for unfree Islamic states where minorities are oppressed and there is no freedom of thought?

    Not wanting a majority to oppress a minority is not the same as hating the majority.
    Is that not Israel?
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Do you have any evidence whatsoever for this? The IDF by its own admission has committed widespread crimes during its occupation and the Israeli government has sanctioned illegal settlements being built in the West Bank. Face up to reality, Netanyahu will not stop until he removes all the Arabs from these areas and he doesn't care how he achieves that aim.

    You even support the Palestinians being deprived of food for heaven's sake.
    When did I say I support such a thing? I don't. I only outlined the core problem, which is not Israel but the jihad.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Is that not Israel?
    Israel is the freest country in the middle east.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    When did I say I support such a thing? I don't. I only outlined the core problem, which is not Israel but the jihad.
    Did you not say you support the blockade of Gaza, even for things like food and building materials?

    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Israel is the freest country in the middle east.
    Yet it oppresses and murders in Palestine.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    The difference between Israeli "terror" and Islamist terror is two-fold:

    1. The Israelis are fighting to preserve a liberal democracy.

    2. The Israelis try not to hit civilians, most of the time. (If their goal was to hit civilians, they would do so much more frequently and in much larger numbers, given their, as you stated, huge military budget).

    Whereas:

    1. Islamists are fighting to establish a totalitarian Islamic state.

    2. Islamists target civilians or innocent people 100% of the time.

    Even if Israel's intent was to kill civilians, it would still be more worth supporting, due to reason #1, than its jihadist opponents.
    You seem to operate on the false pretense that being liberal and democratic somehow makes one righteous. Some of the worst criminals in history have been either or both...

    Anyway, let's believe that being a liberal democrat is enough to grant you immunity.

    Do liberal democrats annex land from their neighbouring state, illegally occupy it and run roughshod all over the fourth Geneva Convention and the Road Map? Israel doesn't behave like a law abiding nation- far from it.

    If you so fear Islamist totalitarian states let's start with Saudi Arabia, the fourth biggest military spenders in the world and the exporters of the Salafist Islam... and a close ally of the US. Why don't you start lobbying your MP's about Saudi?

    But no... we're all too concerned with a rag tag bunch Palestinian nationalists hemmed in against the Med taking potshots at the Iron Dome. Of course they conveniently allow us to forget about the democratic Fatah in the West Bank
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I only outlined the core problem, which is not Israel but the jihad.
    So there was no Israel-Palestine problem before Hamas, in your view?
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Did you not say you support the blockade of Gaza, even for things like food and building materials?

    Yet it oppresses and murders in Palestine.
    A blockade is justified; I never stated any individual policies of the blockade which I agreed or disagreed with. The point you are not getting is why that blockade exists.

    If you cannot grasp what it means to be a free country, then you cannot grasp the crux of this conflict.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    So there was no Israel-Palestine problem before Hamas, in your view?
    I never said the jihad started with Hamas.
 
 
 
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