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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    You seem to operate on the false pretense that being liberal and democratic somehow makes one righteous. Some of the worst criminals in history have been either or both...

    Anyway, let's believe that being a liberal democrat is enough to grant you immunity.

    Do liberal democrats annex land from their neighbouring state, illegally occupy it and run roughshod all over the fourth Geneva Convention and the Road Map? Israel doesn't behave like a law abiding nation- far from it.

    If you so fear Islamist totalitarian states let's start with Saudi Arabia, the fourth biggest military spenders in the world and the exporters of the Salafist Islam... and a close ally of the US. Why don't you start lobbying your MP's about Saudi?

    But no... we're all too concerned with a rag tag bunch Palestinian nationalists hemmed in against the Med taking potshots at the Iron Dome. Of course they conveniently allow us to forget about the democratic Fatah in the West Bank
    I'd like to hear about some of these "liberal democratic" "worst criminals" you're talking about. :lol:

    I never said that democrats can't commit crimes, only that if there is a war between democrats and totalitarians, you should support the democrats.

    If I were to lobby my MP about anything, the disgusting Western "alliance" with Saudi Arabia would be pretty high on my list. What are you getting at, exactly? I would sincerely love for Saudi Arabia to become a liberal democracy, along with all the other execrable tyrannies on Earth. At least we agree on that particular one...

    How exactly is Fatah democratic, when they only call elections when the leader dies? Its leader was Yasser Arafat, until he died. When is Mahmoud Abbas going to call an election? Will it be free and fair? Or will it be a farce, like the 2006 Palestinian "election" in which a jihadist group got to take control over the Gaza strip? We haven't even got onto the fact that Fatah don't seem to have a problem with forming a "unity government" (i.e. dictatorship) with said jihadist group. That Fatah is some kind of secular, freedom-loving-democrats group rather than a totalitarian rival to their totalitarian enemies Hamas, is a joke.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I'd like to hear about some of these "liberal democratic" "worst criminals" you're talking about. :lol:

    I never said that democrats can't commit crimes, only that if there is a war between democrats and totalitarians, you should support the democrats.

    If I were to lobby my MP about anything, the disgusting Western "alliance" with Saudi Arabia would be pretty high on my list. What are you getting at, exactly? I would sincerely love for Saudi Arabia to become a liberal democracy, along with all the other execrable tyrannies on Earth. At least we agree on that particular one...

    How exactly is Fatah democratic, when they only call elections when the leader dies? Its leader was Yasser Arafat, until he died. When is Mahmoud Abbas going to call an election? Will it be free and fair? Or will it be a farce, like the 2006 Palestinian "election" in which a jihadist group got to take control over the Gaza strip? We haven't even got onto the fact that Fatah don't seem to have a problem with forming a "unity government" (i.e. dictatorship) with said jihadist group. That Fatah is some kind of secular, freedom-loving-democrats group rather than a totalitarian rival to their totalitarian enemies Hamas, is a joke.
    So they chose to negotiate with Hamas over civil war? We're supposed to chastise them for that? Why? Is it because Palestinian lives are somehow devalued? And how are you supposed to hold free and fair elections whilst living under occupation?

    I've no real interest in answering any of these issues in depth while you continue to avoid the questions raised about Israel's blatant disregard for the Fourth Geneva Convention among other things.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    A blockade is justified; I never stated any individual policies of the blockade which I agreed or disagreed with. The point you are not getting is why that blockade exists.

    If you cannot grasp what it means to be a free country, then you cannot grasp the crux of this conflict.
    The crux of the conflict is that the Palestinians want their own free country, and the rest of the world thinks they should have it as well but the only ones who don't are the ones with their tanks parked on people's doorsteps.

    The blockade exists because Netanyahu wants a pile of dead Arabs on his hands who he can move out to pave way for more illegal settler towns.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I never said the jihad started with Hamas.
    Jihad is an Islamist concept. What major Palestinian Islamists were fighting in the conflict prior to Hamas?
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    The crux of the conflict is that the Palestinians want their own free country, and the rest of the world thinks they should have it as well but the only ones who don't are the ones with their tanks parked on people's doorsteps.

    The blockade exists because Netanyahu wants a pile of dead Arabs on his hands who he can move out to pave way for more illegal settler towns.
    Meh, I think even the Israeli hardliners have given up hope of colonising Gaza now. It's just too densely populated. Now it's kind of halfway between a ghetto and a punchbag. It's a nuisance that Israel don't really know what to do with, except it occasionally serves to distract attention and or to scare the Palestinians in the West Bank.
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    So they chose to negotiate with Hamas over civil war? We're supposed to chastise them for that? Why? Is it because Palestinian lives are somehow devalued? And how are you supposed to hold free and fair elections whilst living under occupation?

    I've no real interest in answering any of these issues in depth while you continue to avoid the questions raised about Israel's blatant disregard for the Fourth Geneva Convention among other things.
    I would say Palestinian liberty doesn't matter to you. You don't care whether or not a Palestinian state will be free, you only care that it exists.

    What is stopping Mahmoud Abbas holding an election tomorrow?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Jihad is an Islamist concept. What major Palestinian Islamists were fighting in the conflict prior to Hamas?
    Well there is this for a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic...and_background
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    The crux of the conflict is that the Palestinians want their own free country, and the rest of the world thinks they should have it as well but the only ones who don't are the ones with their tanks parked on people's doorsteps.

    The blockade exists because Netanyahu wants a pile of dead Arabs on his hands who he can move out to pave way for more illegal settler towns.
    If they want a free country, why did they vote for totalitarians?
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    A liberal democracy in which news from Gaza is censored, in which Arabs can't even buy a lot of the land and in which an Apartheid system exists in the Occupied Territories? Your "liberal democracy" is a sham.

    Furthermore, as I stated in my above post, with plenty of documented evidence to back it up, the Israelis simply terrorise the Occupied Territories in other ways.



    Unfortunately for you, there doesn't exist a false dichotomy between a totalitarian Islamic state and Israel. Typical Bush-style 'logic'.

    No, they don't. 66 Israeli soldiers were killed, justly, in the 2014 Gaza Massacre. 5 Israeli civilians were killed. These soldiers are not innocent: the Israelis have an obligation, under international law, to withdraw from the Occupied Territories, including Gaza, while the Palestinians have the right to resist occupation, including through attacks on the Israeli military at any time, any place. Incidentally, Hamas didn't fire a single rocket into Israel from the 2012 ceasefire, whilst Israel had broken the ceasefire on numerous occasions.

    Again, not all of its opponents are "jihadists". And, it's not a "liberal democracy", not that a liberal democracy is even anywhere close to perfect (see social democracy for a superior model).

    And, whether or not Israel's intent was to target civilians, the evidence I, and others, have presented would require that you don't "support" any side, but rather support a peaceful two-state solution, call on both Israel and Hamas to end their crimes and support the current leadership in Palestine which is not Hamas-based, but rather secularist. Unfortunately, black-and-white thinking apparently still prevails.

    Somehow, it seems to me that even if Hamas did get voted out in another free and fair election, you'd still support Israel's crimes, seeing as even now, you fail to criticise the illegal Israeli settlements, the demolition of Palestinian homes, the discriminatory practices such as the water allocation discrimination that we see in the Occupied Territories, and of course the systematic war crimes which I've documented above.

    Your totalitarian mindset has been put on show again. Putting the word election in scarequotes despite the fact that independent observers judged it to be free and fair, with the only significant problems coming from Israel itself who tried to disrupt the election?

    Just like Israel and the West, you denounce any election in which the people vote "the wrong way", the product of which has been US-backed juntas, dictatorships and genocides. People generally go to more extreme parties when their land has been occupied and stolen for decades, with excuse after excuse being made as to why the occupation cannot end: the "Islamist threat" is just another of these pathetic excuses.

    You do not support democracy, and nor do your "liberal democracies".

    And, by the way, a Palestinian general election was due to be held last year. Unfortunately, the "liberal democracy" started a conflict which led to the devastation of the Gaza Strip.
    You are of no use in this debate if you cannot figure out the difference between an election where several democratic parties participate, regularly, have to campaign hard for votes and may well lose power in a couple of years at the next election, and a sham "election" where totalitarians win (thus voiding the concept of democracy), who will never call another election and who will instead set up a totalitarian state. Indeed, you seem to fail to recognise just what totalitarianism is, so you are at best unhelpful, at worst dangerous. Supporting a majority's "right" to elect totalitarians to power is simply supporting a majority's "right" to oppress minorities, which is immoral in my opinion (though maybe not yours).

    I don't claim that Israel is perfect. I don't support everything its government has done or continues to do. I oppose a lot of what it does in the West Bank (though not all - I don't oppose the anti-jihad wall for instance). I just think the absolute core of the debate should be around who wants to set up a genuinely free society. I don't believe in setting up states unless they will be liberal democracies (by the way, social democracy is perfectly compatible with liberal democracy, unless you mean Communism or something - "democracy" being a sham in that case). Much of Africa shows that independence for its own sake is not always a good thing.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I would say Palestinian liberty doesn't matter to you. You don't care whether or not a Palestinian state will be free, you only care that it exists.

    What is stopping Mahmoud Abbas holding an election tomorrow?
    Still point blank refusing to answer my question...
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Israel is the freest country in the middle east.
    israel is not a country its one big bloodthirsty war weapon
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    If they want a free country, why did they vote for totalitarians?
    They voted for people who will fight back against the IDF, can't say I blame them after decades of illegal occupation, oppression, and war crimes.


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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Meh, I think even the Israeli hardliners have given up hope of colonising Gaza now. It's just too densely populated. Now it's kind of halfway between a ghetto and a punchbag. It's a nuisance that Israel don't really know what to do with, except it occasionally serves to distract attention and or to scare the Palestinians in the West Bank.
    I think the hardliners privately would like to raze it to the ground and kill everyone in there. Enough senior officials and figures have expressed opinions along these lines. They know they won't get away with it though which leads to the ghetto situation you describe. A smattering of war crimes rather than an attempt at genocide.


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    (Original post by Midlander)
    They voted for people who will fight back against the IDF, can't say I blame them after decades of illegal occupation, oppression, and war crimes.


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    Fight back against the IDF by provoking them into wars which mainly kill Palestinians. Meanwhile, create a totalitarian theocracy.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Or maybe just a hatred for unfree Islamic states where minorities are oppressed and there is no freedom of thought?

    Not wanting a majority to oppress a minority is not the same as hating the majority.
    That's why there was a huge bustling Christian community in Ottoman Palestine? OK.
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    (Original post by Kolasinac138)
    That's why there was a huge bustling Christian community in Ottoman Palestine? OK.
    The Ottoman empire committed genocide against Christians; one of the worst genocides in history.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    The Ottoman empire committed genocide against Christians; one of the worst genocides in history.
    Is that at all related to Palestine? No. Now, stop using typical pro-Israhell arguments of avoiding the argument and bringing up some other nonsense.
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    Still point blank refusing to answer my question...
    He never does
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    (Original post by Kolasinac138)
    Is that at all related to Palestine? No. Now, stop using typical pro-Israhell arguments of avoiding the argument and bringing up some other nonsense.
    I'm not avoiding the argument, I'm proposing one: that Israel is a free country, and Islamic states are not.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Fight back against the IDF by provoking them into wars which mainly kill Palestinians. Meanwhile, create a totalitarian theocracy.
    When did Hamas last occupy Israeli territory?


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