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    (Original post by Midlander)
    What are they putting in the Tel Aviv water Mark?


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    Mark? :confused:
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Wait, wasn't Hamas founded in 1987 or something? The thing I linked to said it started in 1981.
    Hence why I said a few years.

    At any rate, Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood, which has existed for ages and has always opposed Israel (to my knowledge).
    Yes, but an Islamist political group having anti-Israel stance is not the same as jihad. The MB, whatever you think of them, are a political group, not a paramilitary or terrorist organisation.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Mark? :confused:
    Mark Regev. I presume that is who you are or at least your employer.


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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Hence why I said a few years.

    Yes, but an Islamist political group having anti-Israel stance is not the same as jihad. The MB, whatever you think of them, are a political group, not a paramilitary or terrorist organisation.
    I count the jihad as encompassing all Islamist groups, whether or not they carry out explicit violence.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Mark Regev. I presume that is who you are or at least your employer.


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    Good one. :lol:
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    If that's all they wanted then it would be fine. Unfortunately they also want an end to Israel. They have said so many times.
    Much more recently they have called for a return to the 1967 borders and recognition of a Palestinian state. Which is pretty graceful considering that Israel was formed by appropriating land from others and the oppression that it has inflicted upon others.

    Self determination is something that must be respected. I resent how Israel was formed and what it does but I can still respect its right to exist. The ball is in their court, they could end this bloodshed and suffering by accepting a two state solution and by ending the illegal occupation and settlements. If Hamas still launch rockets at them in such a scenario I would be the first to condemn them for it.


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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I count the jihad as encompassing all Islamist groups, whether or not they carry out explicit violence.
    And you think that is the problem? Regardless of what Israel or secular Palestinian groups like Fatah or PFLP do, the problem in Israel-Palestine is that Islamist groups oppose Israel (regardless of whether they actually do anything about it, or even whether they are Palestinian or not)?
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    (Original post by hdindak)
    israel never at any time wanted peace- and thankfully netanyahu has made that very clear recently. At least we arnt under any false pretences anymore- zionists view palestinians as scum- they dont give a **** about peace
    Do you know any history at all? Your first statement is a pathetic attempt to make Israel look like a country which lives for war, thirsty for the blood of Palestinian children.
    I haven't even bothered reading the rest.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Much more recently they have called for a return to the 1967 borders and recognition of a Palestinian state. Which is pretty graceful considering that Israel was formed by appropriating land from others and the oppression that it has inflicted upon others.

    Self determination is something that must be respected. I resent how Israel was formed and what it does but I can still respect its right to exist. The ball is in their court, they could end this bloodshed and suffering by accepting a two state solution and by ending the illegal occupation and settlements. If Hamas still launch rockets at them in such a scenario I would be the first to condemn them for it.


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    Why weren't they calling for a return to the 1967 borders before 1967? They didn't have a state then either, after all - the place was ruled by Jordan. (And Egypt of course, in Gaza).
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    And you think that is the problem? Regardless of what Israel or secular Palestinian groups like Fatah or PFLP do, the problem in Israel-Palestine is that Islamist groups oppose Israel (regardless of whether they actually do anything about it, or even whether they are Palestinian or not)?
    Opposing Israel is one thing, believing Islamic dictatorships are good things is another.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Opposing Israel is one thing, believing Islamic dictatorships are good things is another.
    That doesn't answer my question. Islamists' views may be reprehensible, but that doesn't make those views the core problem of the entire conflict.
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    (Original post by The Clockwork Apple)
    Do you know any history at all? Your first statement is a pathetic attempt to make Israel look like a country which lives for war, thirsty for the blood of Palestinian children.
    I haven't even bothered reading the rest.
    Your opinion means nothing because you are Jewish and hence heavily biased.
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    (Original post by Kolasinac138)
    Your opinion means nothing because you are Jewish and hence heavily biased.
    So you're saying that the moment you believe in something you're not allowed to argue for it? There are many Jews who disagree with Israel's policy. The stupidity behind your attempt to make my arguments invalid is strong.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    There isn't really any such thing as international law. Who decides those laws, and who enforces them? If it's the UN then we know it's a farce, because the UN is a tyrants' club and nobody should listen to a word they say. I support free, democratic societies, and from everything I've seen, the Israelis are the only people in the middle east (with few exceptions - notably the Kurds, and obviously voiceless minorities) who actually want that.

    I thought we were talking about the pragmatic consequences of allowing a Palestinian state to exist.

    Where I lose my alliance with Zionists is in the "Jewish state" aspect of Israel. I don't support it because it's the Jewish state, I support it because it's the democracy. In my view, the best solution would be for everyone in the occupied territories (or whatever you want to call them) to become Israeli citizens, but I know that not many people share that view, unfortunately.
    Now you're just ignoring reality because it's inconvenient to your logic. NEWSFLASH: Israel is most a definitely a Jewish state. That is it's entire purpose. As an unfortunate consequence Israeli Arabs face well documented civil rights issues.
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    (Original post by The Clockwork Apple)
    So you're saying that the moment you believe in something you're not allowed to argue for it? There are many Jews who disagree with Israel's policy. The stupidity behind your attempt to make my arguments invalid is strong.
    Badly worded. Is there any reason you support Israel other than that you're Jewish/Islamophobic?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Netanyahu: If I'm elected, there will be no Palestinian state

    So yeah, Israel all in favour of peace? Yeah, right.
    Israel offered many times a state to the Palestinians yet they have always rejected it of pure Islamism.
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    (Original post by Kolasinac138)
    Badly worded. Is there any reason you support Israel other than that you're Jewish/Islamophobic?
    I'm Islamophobic? What?!
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    (Original post by The Clockwork Apple)
    Do you know any history at all? Your first statement is a pathetic attempt to make Israel look like a country which lives for war, thirsty for the blood of Palestinian children.
    I haven't even bothered reading the rest.
    yep you pretty much nailed it there.
    the amount of pictures i have seen of children hit by snipers bullets in their heart- no accident.
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    (Original post by zgb1)
    Israel offered many times a state to the Palestinians yet they have always rejected it of pure Islamism.
    When was it last offered and on what terms?


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    (Original post by hdindak)
    yep you pretty much nailed it there.
    the amount of pictures i have seen of children hit by snipers bullets in their heart- no accident.
    Most pictures are taken from the Syrian conflict. Israelis are not trained to shoot children.
 
 
 
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