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    The USA should overtake both Israel and Palestine.
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    No you misunderstand, it is intentional but you must understand the context. Those children will eventually grow into adults and there is a chance those adults might end up firing home made rockets at Israel. Thus you must kill the children to stop them potentially being future enemy combatants.

    ....or actually I think those children could have been setting off rockets as well, you can't SEE it, but they were....

    ...there's some sort of acceptable reason for sniping kids, I mean **** maybe it was just for some lulz with the lads, but y'know...Israel needs to fight for its freedom...and stuff.


    Noticed America's relationship seems to be fracturing, think this is solely Obama trying to make a name for himself or if it's a bigger thing which will continue? (Assuming Democrats win, if Republicans win clearly it'll die down).
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    No you misunderstand, it is intentional but you must understand the context. Those children will eventually grow into adults and there is a chance those adults might end up firing home made rockets at Israel. Thus you must kill the children to stop them potentially being future enemy combatants.

    ....or actually I think those children could have been setting off rockets as well, you can't SEE it, but they were....

    ...there's some sort of acceptable reason for sniping kids, I mean **** maybe it was just for some lulz with the lads, but y'know...Israel needs to fight for its freedom...and stuff.


    Noticed America's relationship seems to be fracturing, think this is solely Obama trying to make a name for himself or if it's a bigger thing which will continue? (Assuming Democrats win, if Republicans win clearly it'll die down).
    Did you not see how the Congress behaved towards Netanyahu on his recent visit?


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    You realise that while they're playing peace keeper with Iran, at the same time they're pushing closer to a war with Russia and I'm sure Iran will get involved in that....
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    Hey if Jews hadn't sparked a revolution in Russia and the spread of Communism they wouldn't have been persecuted and could have lived perfectly happily ever after in Europe.

    BUT

    Zionists did not want this. They feared integration, which the Jews managed to avoid for hundreds of years. So they get themselves persecuted, to force Jews to Palestine and establish their national homeland of Israel.

    Meanwhile Europe's become Marxist (Karl Marx was Jewish) while the Jews have their Jewish Zionist nationalism..


    You can see what the Marxist agenda really is.
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    What a lad
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    (Original post by The Clockwork Apple)
    I think people forget why borders changed in 1967.
    You mean Israel's attack on Egypt?
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Actually, after all this time, the world should recognise that the West Bank and Gaza are actually part of "Greater Israel"…

    And everyone living in those areas is a citizen of Israel (ie all the Palestinians).

    That'll make their next election a bit livelier.
    That'll be the long term result unless Israel are prepared to sign a peace deal and soon.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    You mean Israel's attack on Egypt?
    I mean Egyptian forces were sent to Israel's borders and Israel had to defend itself pre-emptively, yes. The 1967 borders are a consequence of neighbouring arab countries having a masochistic obsession with attacking Israel
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    (Original post by The Clockwork Apple)
    I mean Egyptian forces were sent to Israel's borders and Israel had to defend itself pre-emptively, yes. The 1967 borders are a consequence of neighbouring arab countries having a masochistic obsession with attacking Israel
    "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him" - Menachem Begin

    "Nasser did not want war." - Abba Eban, then Israeli foreign minister

    "The whole story about threat of extermination was totally contrived, and then elaborated upon a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territories." - Mordechai Bentov, then Israeli cabinet minister

    "I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it." - Yitzhak Rabin, then Chief of Staff

    "I am convinved that our General Staff never told the government that there was any substance to the Egyptian military threat to Israel... All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, had never been considered in our calculations prior to the unleashing of hostilities. While we proceeded toward the full mobilization of our forced, no-one in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary for our 'defence' against the Egyptian threat...To pretend that the Egyptian force concentrated on our border were capable of threatening Israel's existence not only insults the intelligence of any person capable of analyzing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Zahal [the Israeli Army]." - Mattityahu Peled, then Chief of Logistics for the Armed Forces
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him" - Menachem Begin
    "But, he added in that speech, the 1967 war was not an act of aggression, but of response to multiple acts of aggression designed to debilitate Israel step by step as a preliminary to outright war."

    I don't trust anything else you write because you chose to omit that.
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    (Original post by whorace)
    "But, he added in that speech, the 1967 war was not an act of aggression, but of response to multiple acts of aggression designed to debilitate Israel step by step as a preliminary to outright war."
    Is what it says in wiki. Having read the whole speech, I don't see much to support such a claim. The next passage of the speech, for example, is:

    "This was a war of self-defence in the noblest sense of the term. The government of national unity then established decided unanimously: We will take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation."

    Admittedly, Begin was a hawk, but his logic here is the "Iron Wall" logic that has shaped Israel's foreign policy from its creation; that Israel must always be in a position of secure military strength and advantage vis-a-vis the surrounding states, especially for negotiations. Inevitably this ends up as an aggressive war policy.

    I don't trust anything else you write because you chose to omit that.
    I didn't 'omit' it. Begin's quotes appear in places other than wiki, you know?
    • Welcome Squad
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him" - Menachem Begin

    "Nasser did not want war." - Abba Eban, then Israeli foreign minister

    "The whole story about threat of extermination was totally contrived, and then elaborated upon a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territories." - Mordechai Bentov, then Israeli cabinet minister

    "I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it." - Yitzhak Rabin, then Chief of Staff

    "I am convinved that our General Staff never told the government that there was any substance to the Egyptian military threat to Israel... All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, had never been considered in our calculations prior to the unleashing of hostilities. While we proceeded toward the full mobilization of our forced, no-one in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary for our 'defence' against the Egyptian threat...To pretend that the Egyptian force concentrated on our border were capable of threatening Israel's existence not only insults the intelligence of any person capable of analyzing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Zahal [the Israeli Army]." - Mattityahu Peled, then Chief of Logistics for the Armed Forces
    A fairly convincing argument, but I can do the same with the other side of the conflict, please read up to " As Nasser and Heikal correctly observed, in such a situation Israel either had to surrender or attack. On the morning of June 5, Israel attacked.":
    http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/southernfront.asp
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Is what it says in wiki. Having read the whole speech, I don't see much to support such a claim. The next passage of the speech, for example, is:

    "This was a war of self-defence in the noblest sense of the term. The government of national unity then established decided unanimously: We will take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation."

    Admittedly, Begin was a hawk, but his logic here is the "Iron Wall" logic that has shaped Israel's foreign policy from its creation; that Israel must always be in a position of secure military strength and advantage vis-a-vis the surrounding states, especially for negotiations. Inevitably this ends up as an aggressive war policy.



    I didn't 'omit' it. Begin's quotes appear in places other than wiki, you know?
    Selective quoting from speeches without reading them all is a dangerous practice, you seem intelligent to know that. Thus it seems you omitted it, or you were ignorant of its full contents, either way you made yourself seem unreliable about matters I know little of.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    You are of no use in this debate if you cannot figure out the difference between an election where several democratic parties participate, regularly, have to campaign hard for votes and may well lose power in a couple of years at the next election, and a sham "election" where totalitarians win (thus voiding the concept of democracy), who will never call another election and who will instead set up a totalitarian state. Indeed, you seem to fail to recognise just what totalitarianism is, so you are at best unhelpful, at worst dangerous. Supporting a majority's "right" to elect totalitarians to power is simply supporting a majority's "right" to oppress minorities, which is immoral in my opinion (though maybe not yours).
    Elections were due to be held last year, as I stated previously, but then came Israel's onslaught.

    The last elections of any kind were held in 2010, with the local government elections. I agree that elections should be more regular, but you have no evidence that Hamas will never call another election and instead set up a totalitarian state.

    Their actions indicate that they will take part in elections. You are of no use in this debate - if you want to do something constructive, support and campaign for the improvement of the current state of Palestine; support the formation of a proper State (that is, a state not occupied by Israel who continually meddle in any elections it does have) which will have regular elections. Don't make unevidenced assertions and claim that nothing can change.

    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I don't claim that Israel is perfect. I don't support everything its government has done or continues to do. I oppose a lot of what it does in the West Bank (though not all - I don't oppose the anti-jihad wall for instance). I just think the absolute core of the debate should be around who wants to set up a genuinely free society. I don't believe in setting up states unless they will be liberal democracies (by the way, social democracy is perfectly compatible with liberal democracy, unless you mean Communism or something - "democracy" being a sham in that case). Much of Africa shows that independence for its own sake is not always a good thing.
    Israeli government isn't interested in setting up a genuinely free society. They censor information from Gaza whenever there is a conflict, they have land laws that discriminate based on race.

    Again, support the formation of a "liberal democracy" in Palestine. The longer we wait for a Palestinian state and the longer the occupation and the suffering goes on, the more extreme people's views will get.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    My news thread has been moved here? This is a wonderful way to essentially hide all the news about Israel, place it onto one thread and limit the exposure. I do believe the intentions of the moderator were to de-clutter the forum due to the number of threads, but i do believe for a non-debate and news-reporting thread, it should have been given more exposure time.

    Rest assured, the latest and almost game changing news of a Top White House official giving the most explicit condemnation of Israel will, when i get time, be spread to every human on this planet regardless of whatever means taken to censor it.
    Do it, the apologists here won't like it but tough.


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    (Original post by The Clockwork Apple)
    A fairly convincing argument, but I can do the same with the other side of the conflict, please read up to " As Nasser and Heikal correctly observed, in such a situation Israel either had to surrender or attack. On the morning of June 5, Israel attacked.":
    http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/southernfront.asp
    If what you're getting at are the Egyptian quotes, there was an incentive for Nasser to sabre-rattle in public a bit - he was trying to regain prestige after the Samu raid - yet still not actually intend to go to war. Ultimately, that's what Nasser wanted, a PR victory.
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    Watch felamaslen being grilled by Jon Snow last year as he attempts to justify IDF war crimes:

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    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...pied-jerusalem
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    palestinian terrorists fire rocket into Israel from Gaza.


    A projectile fired from the Gaza Strip exploded in open territory in southern Israel on Thursday night, the IDF confirmed.

    No injuries or damage were reported in the incident that occurred as Independence Day was ending.

    Security forces were searching for the remnants of the projectile.

    Earlier, rocket alert sirens were activated in the southern communities of Sderot.

    This was the first incident of Palestinian rocket fire at southern Israel since a truce between Israel and Hamas went into effect on August 26, ending a 50-day conflict.
 
 
 
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