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    (Original post by LordMarmalade)
    So you are against immigration?
    There's nothing in what I said to suggest that and you know it.

    I support the principle of open borders, but I hardly think it surprising that most Palestinians did not (I know my view in this is a minority one). Especially when you consider that we're not exactly talking about immigration in the conventional sense. Immigrants generally don't migrate with the intention of taking over, or breaking off part of, the land they're moving to for themselves.
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    Yeah let's just go and build a jewish state in the Middle East. Totally a good idea right?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Immigrants generally don't migrate with the intention of taking over, or breaking off part of, the land they're moving to for themselves.
    Only a minority of Jews had this purpose, most of them just wanted to escape pogroms and live free.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    Only a minority of Jews had this purpose, most of them just wanted to escape pogroms and live free.
    Possibly, though what I've seen of this seems a big ambiguous (only a few minor left-wing Zionist groups favoured a binational state rather than an explicitly Jewish one). Though the logical conclusion of this would seem to be that the creation of Israel was not a necessity, but the result of manipulation of Jewish suffering by Zionist political ideologues. Is that what you're arguing (it's certainly an argument I've heard before)?
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    Plain and utter hatred, apologies or correct me if I'm wrong, just a drip of ignorance. How could one ask such?! Have you taken the time to question your existence?
    No one is perfect, I'm pretty sure your not. Do not feel you are in any position whatsoever to make such comments. Ever


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    This discussion undoubtedly has stemmed from your passion of anti Semitism. Why don't you keep your radical views inside your head, TSR is no place for outpouring your hatred darling.


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    (Original post by Josb)
    You just gave the conservative estimation, it could be four times as much. Gottheil mentions 60K Arab immigrants for the period between 1922-31 alone. http://www.meforum.org/522/the-smoki...into-palestine

    No, he claims that there's a discrepancy of ~60,000 between what the expected population would be in 1931, based on the 1922 census and his estimated growth rate, and the actual 1931 census results, in the subdistricts that became part of Israel.

    It's a particularly convoluted argument, and not really a consistent one: When he's looking at the 1931 Census for the whole of Palestine, which he admits is broadly consistent with his estimate of expected population based on natural growth, he argues that this is because the census must not have recorded illegal immigrants (and just to add in here, he claims the 1931 Census made no estimate of the number of unrecorded immigrants since 1922 - actually, it did, it estimated 9,000 Jews and 4,000 Arabs). But when he looks at specific subdistricts and finds a discrepancy between the census results and his estimate of the expected population, he suggests illegal immigrants as an explanation?! His other suggested explanation (and of course there's obviously the possibility that his estimate of the natural growth rate is too low) is that of internal migration, which is a rather different question.

    Arabs (%) Jews (%) Total
    1870 367,224 (98%) 7,000 (2%) 375,000
    1893 469,000 (98%) 10,000 (2%) 497,000
    1912 525,000 (93%) 40,000 (6%) 565,000
    1920 542,000 (90%) 61,000 (10%) 603,000
    1925 598,000 (83%) 120,000 (17%) 719,000
    1930 763,000 (82%) 165,000 (18%) 928,000
    1935 886,000 (71%) 355,000 (29%) 1,241,000
    1940 1,014,000 (69%) 463,000 (31%) 1,478,000
    1946 1,237,000 (65%) 608,000 (35%) 1,845,000
    Where are these figures from, out of curiosity? They seem noticeably lower across the board, for both Arabs and Jews, than the ones I'm looking at.

    It seems quite obvious that the increase of the Arab population could not have took off so sharply after 1920 without a substantial immigration.

    I do recognised there are debates, which are summarized here: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...e-an-exchange/
    Not so much of a debate, as Joan Peters' work is generally considered pretty discredited, even pseudohistory. Sanders and Pipes (who themselves admit how bad a historian Peters was) here are stretching to try and retain something substantial from it. All they come up with is:
    i) There was noticeable internal migration. As I've said, potentially an interesting question, but doesn't affect the debate in the same way external migration would.

    ii) "Miss Peters’s hypothesis is on the table: it is incumbent on her critics to cease the name-calling and make a serious effort to show her wrong by demonstrating that many thousands of Arabs did not emigrate to Palestine in the period under question."
    Except it isn't, because that would be asking them to prove a negative.
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    (Original post by LordMarmalade)
    Israel wasn't created on a religious basis, it was created on an explicitly secular basis. In fact, it had unbroken socialist governments for its first 30 years. The kibbutzim are predominantly secular and atheist.

    The question isn't "Did the Jewish people living in the Levant in the late 1940s deserve self-determination?"

    The real question is "Were the Arabs mistaken in rejecting the UN partition out of hand and attempting to seize 100% of the land by force?"
    LOOOOOOL

    It was a zionist movement to return to the "jewish lands", the exportation of jews from europe who had no links to palestine and caused the displacement of 100's of thousands of people was wrong and not self determination.
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    (Original post by Lav97)
    Have you taken the time to question your existence?
    As we're talking here about the creation of a state, not individual people, this is an irrelevant and misleading rhetorical question.

    If you mean "Have you taken the time to question the existence of the UK (or if you don't live in the UK, whatever country you do live in)?", then yes, I have, and I would conclude that the creation of the UK was also a bad idea.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Possibly, though what I've seen of this seems a big ambiguous (only a few minor left-wing Zionist groups favoured a binational state rather than an explicitly Jewish one). Though the logical conclusion of this would seem to be that the creation of Israel was not a necessity, but the result of manipulation of Jewish suffering by Zionist political ideologues. Is that what you're arguing (it's certainly an argument I've heard before)?
    I wouldn't say it like that, but it's true that the Zionists played shrewdly.
    Jewish nationalism came to life among the educated Jews of Germany and Austria, its supporters wanted to create their own country (they didn't have a place in mind at that moment). However, the secularist Jews of France and the USA (the two most important communities in the West) had no reason to move as they were very well integrated in their country (banking, media, politics...).
    Thus, the nationalists had to convince the religious Jews of Eastern Europe to follow them. Few religious Jews would have wanted to go to Uganda, one of the places considered, whilst the "return to Zion" was logical to them. This is why they chose Palestine.
    The beginning was difficult, and few Russian Jews moved to Palestine (most went to the USA); those who came were besides socialists. The trend only changed after 1924, when the USA restricted their immigration and 1933, when the Nazis came to power.

    Ironically, Israel would have probably never existed if the USA hadn't passed their legislation on immigration in 1924.


    (Original post by anarchism101)
    X
    I found the figures here: http://www.adespicabletruce.org.uk/page62.html
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    (Original post by ridwan12)
    LOOOOOOL

    It was a zionist movement to return to the "jewish lands", the exportation of jews from europe who had no links to palestine and caused the displacement of 100's of thousands of people was wrong and not self determination.
    Herzl and Weizmann weren't religious. They wanted to go back to Palestine because this was where the Jews lived before their expulsion by the Romans. Their claims on Palestine were historical, not religious. Obviously, many Jews had a religious goal, but the founders of Israel were irreligious and, for the most part, socialist.
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    (Original post by Lav97)
    This discussion undoubtedly has stemmed from your passion of anti Semitism. Why don't you keep your radical views inside your head, TSR is no place for outpouring your hatred darling.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Shame on you for using the anti-Semitism card. (There had to be one). This discussion was about the political decision of the creation of Israel. Not all Jewish or "semitic" people agree with Zionism.
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    Hmmm, tempted to say the wiki figures are closer to correct, as they're based on the Ottoman and British census results. While their accuracy isn't entirely certain, if anything they underestimated rather than overestimated.
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    Question: Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing civilians including children?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International fordemolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States , according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S. ?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehicles, bulldozers, or tanks?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections? ?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: What country in the Middle East created millions of refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated?Answer: Israel

    Question: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents from USA and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union ?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque.?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a civilian U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana , Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-third of all U.S. aid to the world yet is the 16th richest country in the world?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because "We control America ?"
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing?
    Answer: Israel

    Question: Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children?
    Answer: Israel.
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    I believe that both Israel and Palestine are in the wrong. Isn't Palestine governed by terrorists?
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    Yes they are
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    Wow...

    Did he actually say "We control America"?
    Why does America give them so much slack?

    I don't know much about this sorta stuff.
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    good girl.
    I'm proud of you.
    SPEAK THE TRUTH.
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    (Original post by Protégé)
    I believe that both Israel and Palestine are in the wrong. Isn't Palestine governed by terrorists?
    Over 2.5K civilians died and no one cared.
    In isreal only 3 died it was on the news 24/7
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    Israel did buy the land of them and then they started going HAM, however I believe isrr
 
 
 
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