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Jammy Duel
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#6801
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#6801
(Original post by Aph)
It's not a big leap when we know, or are fairly certain that religion was caused by Us Becoming self aware. Which is what I was saying. If self awareness caused us to have religion then to conclude that it would have a similar effect on animals for similar reasons (fear of ceasing to exist ect.).
When you look at the evolutionary psychology of religion, depending on which school of thought within it you believe, you are massively over simplifying it and in fact seem to barely fit into either.
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KingStannis
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#6802
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#6802
(Original post by Aph)
It's not a big leap when we know, or are fairly certain that religion was caused by Us Becoming self aware. Which is what I was saying. If self awareness caused us to have religion then to conclude that it would have a similar effect on animals for similar reasons (fear of ceasing to exist ect.).
So self awareness caused religion to occur once, therefore in all animals it must? Why would it?

And also, what reason is there to think it's self awareness that causes religion? Surely there has to be other reasons for that to occur? We need some propositions in between "X is self aware" and "X is religious" in order to make causality plausible I think.
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Rakas21
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#6803
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#6803
Human nature is far from vile. Our predatory instincts, our ruthlessness, they all combine to create a species which dominates everything around them. Coupled with creativity, this allowed a nation of 10 million people to rule a quarter of the planet.

Human nature, creativity and intelligence will lead us to the stars where we shall conquer all that stands before us.
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Jammy Duel
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#6804
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#6804
(Original post by KingStannis)
So self awareness caused religion to occur once, therefore in all animals it must? Why would it?

And also, what reason is there to think it's self awareness that causes religion? Surely there has to be other reasons for that to occur? We need some propositions in between "X is self aware" and "X is religious" in order to make causality plausible I think.
The reason for the second part is most likely a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc. The cause is highly debated for a reason.
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Aph
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#6805
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#6805
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
1) There is thus far no reason to believe we aren't at least among the smartest on the planet
2) I think you underestimate humanity as a species, but what also has to be considered is that the way we have developed and made developments we now have billions alive who, forgive the crudeness, "shouldn't be". The way our brains are formed and operate allow us to do these things, the being taught to merely helps that and I would argue is not the best of arguments against the point being made. After all, many animals are also born with an innate ability to do certain things, however they are not born with "perfect" ability to do so, they still have to learn the same as we do. Much like a lion has evolved for the hunt and knows inherently how to hunt, to hunt well they still need to be taught. Similarly, we have evolved to use tools and be able to perform complex analyses we are taught how to hone these abilities better and faster. Given time a baby will learn to walk on its own and how to use tools placed before it, having somebody holding them as they learn to walk and showing them how to use the tools is merely a way of doing so faster.
And no reason to believe it other then ego...

And I think you overestimate us. I wouldn't deny that most other mammals are taught, and birds too. That that would then leave the octopus being the only one self-taught as the smartest. Interestingly it's the only self aware animal which isn't social so perhaps it is indeed the smartest of us all. And I take it you mean medicine ect? Well yes that's right, but a big population globally has caused more problems then it's worth. Ideally we'd cut down to about 2 billion.
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KingStannis
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#6806
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#6806
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
The reason for the second part is most likely a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc. The cause is highly debated for a reason.
Not a fan of the pointless Latin. This discussion really does take me back to the Does God Exist thread days. Shame most of the people on that thread were boring.
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Aph
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#6807
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#6807
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
When you look at the evolutionary psychology of religion, depending on which school of thought within it you believe, you are massively over simplifying it and in fact seem to barely fit into either.
i know I'm over-simplifying, but the basics are correct, we know they developed at about the same time and it makes sense for them to be connected. There wasn't much else happening to cause religion.

(Original post by KingStannis)
So self awareness caused religion to occur once, therefore in all animals it must? Why would it?

And also, what reason is there to think it's self awareness that causes religion? Surely there has to be other reasons for that to occur? We need some propositions in between "X is self aware" and "X is religious" in order to make causality plausible I think.
Well why would it cause in in one and not the others. That would suggest that something is special about us over others and in terms of evolution that isn't the case.

Rudimentary religion being caused by fear of death is logical to me...
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KingStannis
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#6808
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#6808
How isn't it obvious humans are most most intelligent animals I don't know. We outscore other animals in IQ tests, we behave in an intelligent way, we're the only confirmed conscious creatures in existence, the list goes on.
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Aph
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#6809
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#6809
(Original post by KingStannis)
How isn't it obvious humans are most most intelligent animals I don't know. We outscore other animals in IQ tests, we behave in an intelligent way, we're the only confirmed conscious creatures in existence, the list goes on.
The tests are designed by us and thus are biased.
This is like the 'is Lt. Com. Data alive' question. If it's us that wants to win we can set the bar infinitely high and hold on to the smallest of small differences.
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KingStannis
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#6810
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#6810
(Original post by Aph)
i know I'm over-simplifying, but the basics are correct, we know they developed at about the same time and it makes sense for them to be connected. There wasn't much else happening to cause religion.


Well why would it cause in in one and not the others. That would suggest that something is special about us over others and in terms of evolution that isn't the case.

Rudimentary religion being caused by fear of death is logical to me...
We're different animals, with different brains. Why don't other animals (whom I'll tentatively call self aware though I'm not convinced) create art when humans do? If they're self aware, and that's apparently the only factor in these things, then what explains the difference?

Also I'm sure there has been a non death fearing human who believes in God independently of that lack of fear exist before.
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KingStannis
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#6811
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#6811
(Original post by Aph)
The tests are designed by us and thus are biased.
This is like the 'is Lt. Com. Data alive' question. If it's us that wants to win we can set the bar infinitely high and hold on to the smallest of small differences.
So how could they be less biased?
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Jammy Duel
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#6812
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#6812
(Original post by KingStannis)
Not a fan of the pointless Latin. This discussion really does take me back to the Does God Exist thread days. Shame most of the people on that thread were boring.
After this therefore because of this.

What a surprise, that is the argument.

Self awareness is barely relevant, it's much more about theory of mind, etiology, agent deyection and being able to perform other complex analysis (and I don't mean the mathematical field ) which came at a similar time to self awareness given that they are all due to a much larger neocortex, being about 80pc of the brain for us, about 50 for the more advanced primates.

Alternatively it's a purely a product of Darwinian evolution rather than a by product of.

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Aph
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#6813
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#6813
(Original post by KingStannis)
We're different animals, with different brains. Why don't other animals (whom I'll tentatively call self aware though I'm not convinced) create art when humans do? If they're self aware, and that's apparently the only factor in these things, then what explains the difference?

Also I'm sure there has been a non death fearing human who believes in God independently of that lack of fear exist before.
They do, although you would refuse to call it art. And also science has decided that they are self aware so unless you know better then the top biologists and psychologists...

Also impossible, all humans are born with the 3 basic fears:
Fear of the dark
Fear of the unknown
Fear of being alone.

Death encompasses all 3.
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Aph
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#6814
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#6814
(Original post by KingStannis)
So how could they be less biased?
Have it created by an independent third species which is unbiased. Which is impossible. If an alien came to earth and decided it would be a bit better but that is still bias.
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Jammy Duel
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#6815
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#6815
(Original post by Aph)
And no reason to believe it other then ego...

And I think you overestimate us. I wouldn't deny that most other mammals are taught, and birds too. That that would then leave the octopus being the only one self-taught as the smartest. Interestingly it's the only self aware animal which isn't social so perhaps it is indeed the smartest of us all. And I take it you mean medicine ect? Well yes that's right, but a big population globally has caused more problems then it's worth. Ideally we'd cut down to about 2 billion.
And a list of other reasons, some of which were listed by Stannis

Not just medicine, but also metallurgy, internal combustion, explosives, complex chemical and physical processes, mathematics, philosophy etc.

And I wouldn't say I overestimate is, I would just say that, again, pardon the crudeness, there are a lot of people that don't deserve to live. We have practically beaten all the natural dangers on this planet that it is reasonably possible to defeat, the weak are no longer being killed as fast as they should be; the stupid agent getting themselves killed; healthy people are becoming fat. The people that would survive are the ones that "deserve" life, the ones that are healthy enough, have the skill set and can adapt to the new conditions.

Please don't start going on about eugenics.

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Tanqueray91
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#6816
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#6816
(Original post by Aph)
They do, although you would refuse to call it art. And also science has decided that they are self aware so unless you know better then the top biologists and psychologists...

Also impossible, all humans are born with the 3 basic fears:
Fear of the dark
Fear of the unknown
Fear of being alone.

Death encompasses all 3.
Ermmm, well, does that mean I'm not human because I'm not scared of the dark or unknown...? - and to be honest, nor being alone - despite being alone sucking, doesn't mean that people fear it...
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Aph
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#6817
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#6817
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
And a list of other reasons, some of which were listed by Stannis

Not just medicine, but also metallurgy, internal combustion, explosives, complex chemical and physical processes, mathematics, philosophy etc.

And I wouldn't say I overestimate is, I would just say that, again, pardon the crudeness, there are a lot of people that don't deserve to live. We have practically beaten all the natural dangers on this planet that it is reasonably possible to defeat, the weak are no longer being killed as fast as they should be; the stupid agent getting themselves killed; healthy people are becoming fat. The people that would survive are the ones that "deserve" life, the ones that are healthy enough, have the skill set and can adapt to the new conditions.

Please don't start going on about eugenics.

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First of all I'm not on about eugenics, just sustainability. But rakas is the most notable eugenics supporter here.

Mathematics and philosophy could be used by animals too, maybe just innately but still.

And I'm not sure I understand what you are saying? Are you implying that we are better because of what we have done as a result of socialism?
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Aph
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#6818
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#6818
(Original post by mobbsy91)
Ermmm, well, does that mean I'm not human because I'm not scared of the dark or unknown...? - and to be honest, nor being alone - despite being alone sucking, doesn't mean that people fear it...
I said baby's... We are born with these fears but we overcome them.
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Airmed
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#6819
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#6819
(Original post by mobbsy91)
Ermmm, well, does that mean I'm not human because I'm not scared of the dark or unknown...? - and to be honest, nor being alone - despite being alone sucking, doesn't mean that people fear it...
It won't let me tag you (damn tsr servers, get your **** together) but happy TSrversary and happy new glasses anniversary.
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tehFrance
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#6820
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#6820
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
36 - Complain vociferously about music/fashion/films not being as good as they were in your day.
39 - Accept that you don’t care about football nearly as much as you used to. (not that I ever liked it)
42 - Grudgingly accept that you actually look better in a suit than a T-shirt. (I expect I do)
46 - Develop an obsessive, all-consuming interest in military history. (not quite, but nearly happened a few years back)
47 - Rejoice! You can now afford the deposit on your first home.
48 - Develop extremely forthright and surprisingly right-wing views on immigration.
49 - Realise you can no longer tell if the young woman at work is genuinely flirting or simply feels sorry for you.

Definitely a middle aged man

67 - Realise you spend more time posting angry comments beneath online articles than you do speaking to real people.
What are "real people"?
Ha!

This is me currently;
30 - Convince yourself that a £1500 bike is ‘a good investment’. < Big mistake.
31 - Start using fabric softener as well as washing powder. < Good mistake.
32 - Spend an afternoon with the in-laws without drinking heavily. < Shoot me.
33 - Choose a bottle of wine in a restaurant that isn’t in the top three on the list. < Some are better.
34 - Spend over £75 on a frying pan or kitchen knife and feel absurdly happy about it. < Did this at uni.
36 - Complain vociferously about music/fashion/films not being as good as they were in your day. < I prefer the 60s for telly and anything pre-70s for films.
42 - Grudgingly accept that you actually look better in a suit than a T-shirt. < Without a doubt, learnt this as a child.
46 - Develop an obsessive, all-consuming interest in military history. < Started in secondary.
47 - Rejoice! You can now afford the deposit on your first home. < During uni.
48 - Develop extremely forthright and surprisingly right-wing views on immigration. < In France.
50 - Become increasingly aware that you are in fact an incredibly angry driver. < Lost my licence once already.
64 - Finally master the art of bleeding a radiator. < Who doesn't know this?

I'm approximately 40 years old
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