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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Oh dear, the Nazi wants to speak.
    So, speaking against indiscriminate killing of unarmed civilians, and children makes one a nazi/jew hater?
    The hesbera is strong with this one!
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    (Original post by Huskaris)
    A prison with innocent children in it should be knocked down. Like I said, there is wrong on both sides, but there is a large population of poor, disenfranchised people, who are dying as a result of two groups of posturing morons.
    I was not making an analogy. I was speaking of an actual prison, and saying that if you saw an actual prison, and looked at it without context or thought of right or wrong, then you would think that it was unfair oppression. But it wouldn't be.

    Then I was using that to draw the conclusion that you need to consider context and right and wrong.

    If you see a child crying, you can say, "all I know is that a child is crying and it needs to stop." But you don't know if that child is crying because someone hurt him, or if he's crying because he was trying to take another child's toy and his mum made him stop. Context context context.


    If you want to work more with the prison analogy, you could look at the kids who don't have a parent at home because the parent is in prison for murder. That child is an innocent who is suffering. But that doesn't mean you should let all the murderers out of jail. Again, this is not a direct analogy. This is just explaining, in a different context, how just because innocents are impacted doesn't mean it's not just and necessary.
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    (Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
    I was not making an analogy. I was speaking of an actual prison, and saying that if you saw an actual prison, and looked at it without context or thought of right or wrong, then you would think that it was unfair oppression. But it wouldn't be.
    It might well be (and indeed, I'd say that in many cases, it is). It depends on what exactly prison treatment is like, and what crime the prisoners are being incarcerated for, at the very least. If you want to take it to a more indirect level, you could furthermore consider what prison structure and prisons say about the society more generally.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    So, speaking against indiscriminate killing of unarmed civilians, and children makes one a nazi/jew hater?
    What are you talking about? I was responding to this comment

    Well if jews can play victims and they kill gays and abuse children
    It is basically completely made-up lies about Jewish people. You think that is not anti-semitic?
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    (Original post by Huskaris)
    Looking at the bare facts of the situation, I find it almost impossible to feel anything other than extreme sympathy for the Palestinian people.

    Take out of the equation who might be right or wrong, in terms of Hamas, or the Israeli government, there are a group of innocent people who are being killed and are pawns in a disgusting battle
    Regarding that, don't you think it is a relevant consideration that the only reason Israel is now being bombarded by Hamas rockets is because they did the right thing in 2005 and completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip, pulled all the soldiers out, forcibly evicted the Israeli settlers at great political cost, to hand it over entirely to the Palestinians as a first step / peace gesture with a view to moving on to a West Bank disengagement next.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...ment_from_Gaza

    And then their reward for pulling out of Gaza is to see it fall to Hamas, who immediately start bombarding Israel with rockets. Do you not think that is a relevant consideration here? Do you not have any sympathy for the extraordinary difficulty Israeli policy-makers are in when they are under rocket bombardment; they can either do nothing, in which case it just gets worse, or they can retaliate and unfortunately civilians will be killed. What do you propose they do?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Well, that's 30 minutes of my life I won't get back. Pretty blatant propaganda, little hint of even a nuance, and over the course of the video became just about everything it claimed to be against....
    It is a legitimate point of view, and also I think the most important information I got from it was Natan Sharansky's framework for assessing whether criticism of Israel comes from an anti-semitic origin (that is, if it involves delegitimisation, demonisation or double-standards)
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    What are you talking about? I was responding to this comment



    It is basically completely made-up lies about Jewish people. You think that is not anti-semitic?
    There is virtually nothing anti-Semitic about that comment; blatantly common sense I suppose
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    (Original post by quentinhamilton)
    There is virtually nothing anti-Semitic about that comment; blatantly common sense I suppose
    What is this about "Jews killing gays and abusing children"? How is this common sense?

    If anything, Israel is the most tolerant country in the mid-east (and more tolerant than some European countries) in terms of homosexuality.

    As to the abuse of children, how is this specific to Jewish people?
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    (Original post by Huskaris)
    I feel either side would willingly see the other obliterated off the map.
    Actually that's not really true, is it? A fundamental distinction here is that Israel actually has the power to wipe the Gaza Strip off the map, or to go in and topple Hamas. They can, but they don't, nor would they want to.

    By contrast, Hamas does not have the power to wipe Israel off the map but you know they would if they could
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    What is this about "Jews killing gays and abusing children"? How is this common sense?

    If anything, Israel is the most tolerant country in the mid-east (and more tolerant than some European countries) in terms of homosexuality.

    As to the abuse of children, how is this specific to Jewish people?
    The only flaw in that comment is the fact that the Israeli soldiers don't technically 'abuse' children, they kill children- children being their target. Maybe if you stop enabling yourself to be indoctrinated by ridiculous Zionist propaganda you'd use your initiatives more
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    I have no sympathy for Hamas or Israel, they are both scum in my eyes. I wouldn't mind seeing both of the governments destroy each other.

    (Original post by quentinhamilton)
    The only flaw in that comment is the fact that the Israeli soldiers don't technically 'abuse' children, they kill children- children being their target. Maybe if you stop enabling yourself to be indoctrinated by ridiculous Zionist propaganda you'd use your initiatives more
    I wasn't aware that Israeli soldiers killed gays.
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    There is huge difference between being anti-zionist and being anti-semitic.

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    (Original post by quentinhamilton)
    The only flaw in that comment is the fact that the Israeli soldiers
    He didn't say Israeli soldiers, he said Jews.

    Maybe if you stop enabling yourself to be indoctrinated by ridiculous Zionist propaganda you'd use your initiatives more
    "Use my initiatives"? :lol: I don't think that means what you think it means.

    As to "ridiculous Zionist propaganda", Zionism means that you believe that the State of Israel has a right to exist. Nothing wrong with Zionism.

    Maybe if you weren't so brainwashed by psuedo-pro-Palestinian agitprop (pseudo because the people calling on the Palestinians to fight are happy to sit comfortably in their Western armchairs, while the dream of a Palestinian state gets further and further away) then you would realise how far you've crossed the line into blatant anti-semitism,
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    (Original post by SotonianOne)
    Me and my friends stopped paying student union charges because they set up an anti-israel debate. Funny though, because they had to close 3 programs xxx
    There's charges for being joined to the student union? Does this apply to all societies?
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    (Original post by small_circles)
    There is huge difference between being anti-zionist and being anti-semitic.
    How would you define Zionism?
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    (Original post by quentinhamilton)
    The only flaw in that comment is the fact that the Israeli soldiers don't technically 'abuse' children, they kill children
    Do Israelis soldiers just kill Palestinian children for no reason, for fun? Or is there a bit more context to the unfortunate deaths of Palestinian children during IDF operations?
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    (Original post by Protégé)
    I have no sympathy for Hamas or Israel, they are both scum in my eyes. I wouldn't mind seeing both of the governments destroy each other.



    I wasn't aware that Israeli soldiers killed gays.
    Well it is humane for one to side Palestine. We are all aware that Israel are practically trying to overtake a land which never was labelled 'Israel' also the vast casualties in Palestine requires us to be more sympathetic towards the innocent.
    Lets forget the government's corruption and lets focus more on humanity
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    (Original post by quentinhamilton)
    The only flaw in that comment is the fact that the Israeli soldiers don't technically 'abuse' children, they kill children- children being their target. Maybe if you stop enabling yourself to be indoctrinated by ridiculous Zionist propaganda you'd use your initiatives more
    Apart from they do not 'target' children. Hamas do use children as human shields for ammo stores though.
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    How would you define Zionism?
    A political movement set up by secular irreligious Jews with a view in mind to set up a Jewish state going against traditional jewish teachings and with a huge indifferent attitude towards anyone who doesn't agree with them.

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    (Original post by quentinhamilton)
    We are all aware that Israel are practically trying to overtake a land
    So why did the Israelis pull out of Gaza in 2005?

    which never was labelled 'Israel'
    Leaving aside this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom..._%28Samaria%29), nor was Palestine ever a state called Palestine pre-48. Both facts are pretty irrelevant. What matters is the right to self-determination of the people who live there.

    In 1948, the UN partitioned it into two-states; one state was made up of the areas which were majority Jewish. The other of the area which was majority Palestinian/Muslim. Instead of accepting what seems like a pretty sensible split, the Arabs rejected the partition and attempted to take 100% of the land by force.
 
 
 
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