Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by LivngForSummer)
    The population has grown INSPITE of Israel's ethnic cleansing.
    Some ethnic cleansing; about 12,000 Palestinians have been killed in the last 60 years by Israeli action. How many Muslims do you think were killed by ISIS in one month, say June, last year?

    And there are over a million Arab Israelis who have full support from the state in terms of their own schools, support from the welfare state to have many children.

    The accusation of ethnic cleansing against Israel immediately discredits the accuser.
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    Pro-palestine in principle.
    The west can't just go to a an existing country and demand they give up their land to create a new state....

    But in reality I support a two-state solution.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Are you a British Jew?



    So what is your take on Israel's pullout from the Gaza strip in 2005?

    My mother is Jewish so technically I am Jewish and now have more of a right to live in Jerusalem than a Palestinian family who has lived there for centuries, -- ****ed- up logic espoused by many Israeli's.

    The 2005 pull out doesn't mean Gaza is not occupied- Israel controls airspace, sea, water supply, electricity, population registry and eats into the land. The place is a glorified concentration camp. I wouldn't live in Israel if they paid me and ironically that how they are increasing their Jewish population- paying people to live their how pathetic can you get by denying/ expelling people who lived there for centuries and shipping in your fake population who has a 'inherent, genetic claim' to the land.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Some ethnic cleansing; about 12,000 Palestinians have been killed in the last 60 years by Israeli action. How many Muslims do you think were killed by ISIS in one month, say June, last year?

    And there are over a million Arab Israelis who have full support from the state in terms of their own schools, support from the welfare state to have many children.

    The accusation of ethnic cleansing against Israel immediately discredits the accuser.

    Wtf?! So Israel is Isis but Jewish, good for you for supporting the Jewish version of Isis.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by contradicta)
    The west can't just go to a an existing country and demand they give up their land to create a new state....
    I think there are a few issues with that narrative.

    First, there was no existing country. There had never been a state called "Palestine", it had previously been a governorate of various Roman and Islamic empires. Going back a little way it was a patchwork of Jewish kingdoms. And it is important to emphasise that Jewish inhabitation of Palestine was continuous, there was never a time where Jews weren't living in Palestine, in various numbers, including in medieval and renaissance times.

    Second, when Palestine was partitioned in 1948, the UN (who took responsibility from the British mandate that came out of the League of Nations and their defeat of the Ottoman Empire who previously controlled Palestine). At that point in 1948, there were about 500,000 Jews and 1.1 million Muslims. The UN sensibly decided that it was not plausible they could live together, and so partitioned the state into a Jewish majority state and a Palestinian majority state, with Jerusalem as an international zone.

    The Palestinians, as they had more people, were given more land. Instead of accepting this, the Arab world (with an explicitly genocidal policy) rejected the partition and tried to seize 100% of the land by force.

    They failed, and Israel was born. In the following years, many of the Jews who lived in countries like Egypt, Iraq, Yeman and Iran decided to move to Israel to escape persecution, and today a majority of Israeli Jews are descendents of middle eastern Jews

    In 1967, Jordan (which controlled the West Bank) attacked Israel, Israel counter-attacked and took the West Bank. They didn't want it, they didn't pre-emptively set out to conquer it.

    My points here is that it is highly complex, and not straightforward "Oh those evil European Jews set up a colonial state to evict the Palestinians". That is not accurate, historically

    But in reality I support a two-state solution.
    I agree. That is the only way forward, and we need it sooner rather than later
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by LivngForSummer)
    The 2005 pull out doesn't mean Gaza is not occupied- Israel controls airspace, sea, water supply, electricity, population registry and eats into the land.
    I'm sorry but you are living in a fantasy land. Israel pulled out all of its troops and settlers, and even left intact many of the economic resources (like the farms etc) so they Palestinians could take them over and make an income.

    There was no economic blockade of the Gaza Strip prior to Hamas taking it over. The more rocket Hamas launches, the tighter the blockade. It's a very simple equation.

    The fact you appear to be egging on the Palestinians to fire more rockets, which just brings more misery for the Palestinians, is deeply irresponsible. Any remaining restrictions in Gaza in 2005/06 would have been lessened over time as Israel saw that Fatah was governing reasonably and well. And that's exactly what Fatah would have done. Instead, Hamas took over the strip and we ended up where we are today.

    The place is a glorified concentration camp
    You've basically just completely discredited yourself.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by LivngForSummer)
    Wtf?! So Israel is Isis but Jewish, good for you for supporting the Jewish version of Isis.
    If you think Israel is the Jewish version of ISIS, then you have completely lost the plot mate.
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    I think there are a few issues with that narrative.

    First, there was no existing country. There had never been a state called "Palestine", it had previously been a governorate of various Roman and Islamic empires. Going back a little way it was a patchwork of Jewish kingdoms. And it is important to emphasise that Jewish inhabitation of Palestine was continuous, there was never a time where Jews weren't living in Palestine, in various numbers, including in medieval and renaissance times.

    Second, when Palestine was partitioned in 1948, the UN (who took responsibility from the British mandate that came out of the League of Nations and their defeat of the Ottoman Empire who previously controlled Palestine). At that point in 1948, there were about 500,000 Jews and 1.1 million Muslims. The UN sensibly decided that it was not plausible they could live together, and so partitioned the state into a Jewish majority state and a Palestinian majority state, with Jerusalem as an international zone.

    The Palestinians, as they had more people, were given more land. Instead of accepting this, the Arab world (with an explicitly genocidal policy) rejected the partition and tried to seize 100% of the land by force.

    They failed, and Israel was born. In the following years, many of the Jews who lived in countries like Egypt, Iraq, Yeman and Iran decided to move to Israel to escape persecution, and today a majority of Israeli Jews are descendents of middle eastern Jews

    In 1967, Jordan (which controlled the West Bank) attacked Israel, Israel counter-attacked and took the West Bank. They didn't want it, they didn't pre-emptively set out to conquer it.

    My points here is that it is highly complex, and not straightforward "Oh those evil European Jews set up a colonial state to evict the Palestinians". That is not accurate, historically



    I agree. That is the only way forward, and we need it sooner rather than later
    I know it's most complicated than that but still just cause there is a large population of a certain religion doesn't mean they should be given their own state... especially in an region of arab countries there was no way it was going to go well.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    I don't see myself as a partisan supporting a side. I do, however, absolutely support the idea of the State of Israel, and I believe Israel was mainly on the defensive from 1948 to the late 1970s. They were lucky to survive.

    However, I am also very committed to the idea of a two-state solution. I find the West Bank settlements repulsive, and I don't like the ultra-religious Israelis who are constantly whipping up hatred amongst Palestinians, who usually refuse to serve in the army and sit around on welfare having 12 kids.

    I don't particularly like the way Israel has turned to the right in the last 20 years. On the other hand, there have been two very good chances for a comprehensive peace deal, particularly about 10 years ago when Israel pulled out of Gaza completely, and Olmert was ready to do a grand bargain. It is a tragedy that the Palestinians failed to act on that offer.

    Anyway, I think I'm in the most difficult position, that of being a moderate, opposed to both Palestinian militancy and to the extreme religious Jewish element.
    I understand that it's complex but I don't think that Israel's existence is justified from what I know so far. I don't support Hamas, I'd rather have a new and moderate Palestinian regime that defeats Israel without persecuting the Jewish population. I don't believe that the government of Palestine represents the people of Palestine, not all have hatred for the Jewish civilians.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by contradicta)
    I know it's most complicated than that but still just cause there is a large population of a certain religion doesn't mean they should be given their own state
    I think it has to be looked at rationally. In what way is it rational that the Jews of Palestine in 1948 should have lived under an Arab Muslim government? For what purpose?

    There was an extremely strong case for self-determination for both sides, both Muslims and Jews

    especially in an region of arab countries there was no way it was going to go well.
    I don't think that Arab prejudice against Jews should have a veto on whether the Jews living in Palestine were given a state. It should also be remembered it was not just Jews, there are also Druzes in Israel and they are amongst the strongest supporters of the State of Israel, because they have long history of being oppressed by Arab Muslim

    Ditto the Ba'hai religion, whose main worldwide temple is based in Haifa, Israel. Israel is a haven for various religious minorities of the Middle East, including the million of Jews living in countries like Iraq, Yemen etc who had to move to Israel.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Protégé)
    I understand that it's complex but I don't think that Israel's existence is justified from what I know so far.
    So what do you think should have happened to the 500,000 Jews in Palestine in 1948? Why do you oppose self-determination for them?
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    If you think Israel is the Jewish version of ISIS, then you have completely lost the plot mate.
    You're the one who compared Isis' killings to Israel's! Anyway I think you have blinkers on about Israel, I've run into your kind before. Your not doing us Jews or Israel any favors by supporting its blatant breach of International law. Israel maybe a relatively new nation but it's not run by babies, stop excusing its terrible crimes and hold them to account (you can do that without endorsing the behavior of the other side you know). This sums up what I think about the situation on both sides:

    "Absolute power corrupts absolutely
    But absolute powerlessness does the same."
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Huskaris)
    As someone who is coming at this debate from a neutral point of view, I am neither Jewish, nor Muslim, I have no axe to grind and no reason to support either side.

    Looking at the bare facts of the situation, I find it almost impossible to feel anything other than extreme sympathy for the Palestinian people.

    Take out of the equation who might be right or wrong, in terms of Hamas, or the Israeli government, there are a group of innocent people who are being killed and are pawns in a disgusting battle in which I feel either side would willingly see the other obliterated off the map.
    Stop feigning neutrality. I have picked you up before about this. It is clear from your previous comment that you are anything but objective on this issue:

    (Original post by Huskaris)
    If I was a Palestinian I would be getting a knife out and stabbing as many of the baby killing ***** as I could.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    So what do you think should have happened to the 500,000 Jews in Palestine in 1948? Why do you oppose self-determination for them?
    They should have just lived there without trying to take over.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Protégé)
    They should have just lived there without trying to take over.
    They didn't try to "take over". The UN voted them a state, and then the Arabs tried to "take over" 100% of the land by force.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    They didn't try to "take over". The UN voted them a state, and then the Arabs tried to "take over" 100% of the land by force.
    I don't agree that the UN should have ultimate jurisdiction. Weren't Palestinians forcibly evicted from their homes? If the government was being oppressive to them then fair enough but I don't see why the civilians should be punished.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by LivngForSummer)
    You're the one who compared Isis' killings to Israel's!
    I was pointing out the blatant double standard in fixating on Israel having killed 12,000 Palestinians in 60 years when that many Muslims were killed in one month by another group.

    The fact that many Muslims fixate on mistakes or crimes by the only Jewish state in the world speaks to what is driving their opposition to Israel's existence.

    If you think that logically leads to saying that Israel is the "Jewish ISIS", then you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed and you're probably unworthy of further discussion.

    Your not doing us Jews or Israel any favors by supporting its blatant breach of International law.
    I'm sorry but you don't know my religious upbringing or background, and you have no right to claim to speak on behalf of Jews.

    Oh and if you want to see international law, then see this; (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...stine#The_vote)

    The existence of Israel is lawful under international law.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    I was pointing out the blatant double standard in fixating on Israel having killed 12,000 Palestinians in 60 years when that many Muslims were killed in one month by another group.

    The fact that many Muslims fixate on mistakes or crimes by the only Jewish state in the world speaks to what is driving their opposition to Israel's existence.

    If you think that logically leads to saying that Israel is the "Jewish ISIS", then you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed and you're probably unworthy of further discussion.



    I'm sorry but you don't know my religious upbringing or background, and you have no right to claim to speak on behalf of Jews.

    Oh and if you want to see international law, then see this; (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...stine#The_vote)

    The existence of Israel is lawful under international law.
    Whataboutery.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Protégé)
    I don't agree that the UN should have ultimate jurisdiction.
    If not the UN, then who? The British Empire took the Palestine area from the Ottoman Empire in World War 1. At that point, the League of Nations set up the Mandate of Palestine, which was overseen by the British. Post-1945, the British wanted nothing to do with it and were pulling out, some settlement had to be made.

    The UN had responsibility as the successor organisation to the League of Nations, almost like the internatinoal equivalent of a guardian.

    Weren't Palestinians forcibly evicted from their homes?
    That's a very complex area. Many Palestinians fled from their homes voluntarily (and particularly in the face of alarmist broadcasts on the radio from Arab broadcasters telling them the Jews were coming to rape them; the broadcasters hoped it would cause them to attack the Israelis, but instead many just took their belongings and left. You can see more about that in this documentary from the history channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usihmYTke9I)

    It's also true to say some Palestinians were forcibly evicted for reasons of military security, and sometimes in war crimes, and there were some massacres. There were also evictions and massacres of Jews as well.

    The important and fundamental point though is that there are 1.1 million Arab Israelis today living within the 1967 borders with full citizenship rights (these are not the palestinians WB/Gaza, but full Arab citizens in Israel), their ancestors were not evicted from their homes, and particularly in the north. The main areas where there were evictions were areas where there was heavy fighting.

    It is unfortunate, but that is war and none of that would have happened if the Arabs had not rejected the UN partition and tried to seize 100% of the land by force. Sometimes, you just have to accept and move on (just as the Germans did after World War 2, their borders with Poland were moved much further to the west and they lost much land; they did not create a "resistance" against Poland, they moved on) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany..._of_Poland.png)

    There is sorrow on both sides. But the narrative of some evil grand plan of Palestinian genocide is hysterical, and not historically factual
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by LivngForSummer)
    Whataboutery.
    :lol: I don't think you understand what that word means.

    If you bring up international law as a standard that must be obeyed, then you must accept that Israel has a legitimate right to exist under international law
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: January 8, 2017
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Will you be richer or poorer than your parents?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.