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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    If not the UN, then who? The British Empire took the Palestine area from the Ottoman Empire in World War 1. At that point, the League of Nations set up the Mandate of Palestine, which was overseen by the British. Post-1945, the British wanted nothing to do with it and were pulling out, some settlement had to be made.

    The UN had responsibility as the successor organisation to the League of Nations, almost like the internatinoal equivalent of a guardian
    Honestly, if I led a country and the UN tried to order me about I'd tell them to piss off. I would be very open to any suggestions but I wouldn't accept if they actually tried and forced the country to do something. Anyway, isn't the UN now against Israel? Many claim that the UN is biased against Israel.

    That's a very complex area. Many Palestinians fled from their homes voluntarily (and particularly in the face of alarmist broadcasts on the radio from Arab broadcasters telling them the Jews were coming to rape them; the broadcasters hoped it would cause them to attack the Israelis, but instead many just took their belongings and left. You can see more about that in this documentary from the history channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usihmYTke9I)

    It's also true to say some Palestinians were forcibly evicted for reasons of military security, and sometimes in war crimes, and there were some massacres. There were also evictions and massacres of Jews as well.

    The important and fundamental point though is that there are 1.1 million Arab Israelis today living within the 1967 borders, their ancestors were not evicted from their homes, and particularly in the north. The main areas where there were evictions were areas where there was heavy fighting.

    It is unfortunate, but that is war and none of that would have happened if the Arabs had not rejected the UN partition and tried to seize 100% of the land by force. Sometimes, you just have to accept and move on (just as the Germans did after World War 2, their borders with Poland were moved much further to the west and they lost much land; they did not create a "resistance" against Poland, they moved on)

    There is sorrow on both sides. But the narrative of some evil grand plan of Palestinian genocide is hysterical, and not historically factual
    Ah, fear is quite the motivation for prejudice. What do you mean that they were evicted for military security? I think that it's their right to hold all of the land, it was theirs in the first place, no? I don't blame the governments for genocide as long as it wasn't ordered by the state, in the Vietnam war there were masacres by both sides but neither sides had it in their best interests to do so.

    Why was there a suggestion for a partition anyway, was it because the Jewish people were discriminated against?
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    https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/cont...n-conflict-101

    Watch this it will tell you clearly the history of the conflict okay
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    (Original post by LivngForSummer)
    I wouldn't live in Israel if they paid me and ironically that how they are increasing their Jewish population- paying people to live their
    How retardedly false and misinformed.
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    (Original post by Raymat)
    There's charges for being joined to the student union? Does this apply to all societies?
    It's theoretically more of a donation but when you consider that it is a college-run union that prevents you from attending tutor periods and cuts you off from some facilities it's more of a charge.
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    I guess we should defend Israel's illegal settlements.
    It's bombings of hospitals and schools.
    Constant destruction of whole areas with phosphorus and bombs [I can see why people are ANGRY and go to extreme measures such as suicide bombing - it's not as if they've got an air force to join to kill people 'legally']
    Im pretty sure you will be eager to defend all the 65 UN resolutions that Israel has broken?
    Probably defend Israel attacking an aid convoy in international waters?

    It doesn't require a historian to look at a 100 year history lesson, all they've got to do is look at the facts and who's committing the crimes against international law.
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    :lol: I don't think you understand what that word means.

    If you bring up international law as a standard that must be obeyed, then you must accept that Israel has a legitimate right to exist under international law
    I've kind of adopted that word into my everyday vocabulary to brush off waffling, I use it frequently, especially when talking about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict because I usually find that the person I'm talking to is very unlearned about the issue. Where did I say "Israel has no right to exist under international law"? Personally, I don't think the creation of Israel was necessary or just but now its here I am all for a one state solution with a regime change. I don't know if it will work but I doubt two states are possible with so many illegal settlements in Palestinian territory.
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    (Original post by Protégé)
    Honestly, if I led a country and the UN tried to order me about I'd tell them to piss off.
    There wasn't really a Palestinian leadership per se, because it didn't exist as a state and had never been a state. The Arab world claimed the right to negotiate on their behalf, and in many ways botched it.

    In life, you can often stand on your rights, and demand satisfaction, and say your pride and dignity will not allow you to take one step back. And practically speaking, you end up where the Palestinians are now.

    Or you can be pragmatic, sensible, and if the Palestinians had done this they would have a state that was bigger than Israel, and 60 years of continuous sovereignty. Working together, the two countries probably would have become quite prosperous.

    I wouldn't accept if they actually tried and forced the country to do something
    If we are talking about forcing, then what right did the Palestinian Muslims have to forcibly rule over the Jews in Palestine?

    Anyway, isn't the UN now against Israel? Many claim that the UN is biased against Israel.
    The UN Human Rights Council is definitely biased against Israel, they only have one standing agenda item and that is Israel. In some years, the majority of resolutions passed have been passed against Israel. That's what you get when countries like Saudi Arabia are leading members of a human rights council.

    As to the UN generally, they oppose Israeli settlements and on that I agree with the UN. But that does not overturn or undermine the fundamental legality of the State of Israel within the 1967 borders.

    What do you mean that they were evicted for military security?
    Israeli convoys on the road from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem were being ambushed by Arab villages. Some Arab villages were emptied / evicted. It was a tough war, and Israel was fighting for its survival. After all, only a few years before that, we the Allies had killed 100,000 civilians in one night in the firebombing of Tokyo. War is difficult, and cruel, and I think it behooves us not to apply some very strict standard to Israel that we are not applying to other people

    Millions of Germans were forced out of their homes and made refugees in the aftermath of World War 2, as Poland's borders were pushed west at the expense of Germany. That is, unfortunately, life.

    Having said that, the majority of cases where Palestinians left their homes was voluntarily to escape fighitng of both sides, or in response to radio broadcasts

    I think that it's their right to hold all of the land, it was theirs in the first place, no?
    Who is they, though? If we're going to say the very first place, then it was the Kingdom of Israel. If we are going to say the "last" first place before the mandate, then it belongs to the Ottoman Turks.

    Why was there a suggestion for a partition anyway, was it because the Jewish people were discriminated against?
    There had been quite a lot of violence against Jewish people in Palestine, all throughout that period

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

    And I can understand that the Jews of Palestine would not feel safe under the Palestinian Arabs, after all, their religious leader the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had met with Hitler during World War 2 and made an alliance with him

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Ami...olf_Hitler.jpg

    I can understand that, given the Jews had been killed in their millions, that other countries had not exactly opened up their gates to Jewish refugees pre-1939, and that many Palestinians had sympathies with the Third Reich, that the Jews of Palestine would say, "We cannot rely on anyone else for our safety, we can only rely on ourselves and a nation-state is the way to do that"
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    (Original post by LivngForSummer)
    The population has grown INSPITE of Israel's ethnic cleansing. The area has always had a larger Palestinian population throughout history and they tend to have lots of kids per family.
    There was ethnic cleansing in the early 40s maybe. Not today. Not for a long time.
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    (Original post by LivngForSummer)
    I am all for a one state solution
    In which case there are more Israeli Jews than Palestinian Muslims, so the Israelis will rule that one state. There are about 6 million Jews and 4 million Palestinians, including WB/Gaza

    In fact, some far-right Israelis have called for exactly that; for Israel to completely annex the West Bank and give its citizens voting rights

    with a regime change
    Presumably what you actually mean is a dictatorship, because you could not accept that even with a single-state the Jewish people would be a majority, so you would want to take away their voting rights? How would you square that circle?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    There was ethnic cleansing in the early 40s maybe. Not today. Not for a long time.
    I don't class last summer as 'Not for a long time."
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    A very simple way of the Israel-Palestine argument:

    One state vs another state which causes a lot of innocent civilians to die.

    If someone ask you who's side you're on the answer should really be very straightforward: 'the people's'.
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    (Original post by Protégé)
    Why was there a suggestion for a partition anyway, was it because the Jewish people were discriminated against?
    In addition to all I've written above, it's worthwhile remembering that a majority of Israelis today are descended from Jews who fled from places like Iraq, Iran, Yemen and Egypt in the early 1950s

    That's why if you go to Israel today, you'll see that many of them look middle Eastern because they are middle eastern.


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    (Original post by LivngForSummer)
    I don't class last summer as 'Not for a long time."
    What ethnic cleansing occurred last summer?
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    In which case there are more Israeli Jews than Palestinian Muslims, so the Israelis will rule that one state. There are about 6 million Jews and 4 million Palestinians, including WB/Gaza

    In fact, some far-right Israelis have called for exactly that; for Israel to completely annex the West Bank and give its citizens voting rights



    Presumably what you actually mean is a dictatorship, because you could not accept that even with a single-state the Jewish people would be a majority, so you would want to take away their voting rights? How would you square that circle?
    It's the far right that are the problem in Israel and unfortunately they hold the balance of power. No I do not mean a dictatorship. Over and over again you continue to re-frame my arguments and fail to understand what I am saying. The best solution I've seen is set out is the one proposed by the historian Ilan Pappe perhaps you can read one of his books or check him out on Youtube. I for one have things to do. Bye.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    What ethnic cleansing occurred last summer?
    Where were you? Over 2,000 civilians dead, mostly women and children.
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    (Original post by Jacky Hearts)
    A very simple way of the Israel-Palestine argument:

    One state vs another state which causes a lot of innocent civilians to die.

    If someone ask you who's side you're on the answer should really be very straightforward: 'the people's'.
    Which people? People who support racist theocrats? Or people who support the democratic process?
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    There wasn't really a Palestinian leadership per se, because it didn't exist as a state and had never been a state. The Arab world claimed the right to negotiate on their behalf, and in many ways botched it.

    In life, you can often stand on your rights, and demand satisfaction, and say your pride and dignity will not allow you to take one step back. And practically speaking, you end up where the Palestinians are now.

    Or you can be pragmatic, sensible, and if the Palestinians had done this they would have a state that was bigger than Israel, and 60 years of continuous sovereignty. Working together, the two countries probably would have become quite prosperous.
    Nope, I wouldn't have been the same as the authorities there. I just would have invited the Jewish people to live there and employ strict anti-discrimination laws. I wouldn't have given up any land exclusively to them though. If it didn't exist as a state in what way did it function?

    If we are talking about forcing, then what right did the Palestinian Muslims have to forcibly rule over the Jews in Palestine
    What? Isn't that like me moving to America and saying "What right does Obama have to rule over me?"

    The UN Human Rights Council is definitely biased against Israel, they only have one standing agenda item and that is Israel. In some years, the majority of resolutions passed have been passed against Israel. That's what you get when countries like Saudi Arabia are leading members of a human rights council.

    As to the UN generally, they oppose Israeli settlements and on that I agree with the UN. But that does not overturn or undermine the fundamental legality of the State of Israel within the 1967 borders
    That's horrible since the Saudi government is comprised of utter scum.

    Israeli convoys on the road from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem were being ambushed by Arab villages. Some Arab villages were emptied / evicted. It was a tough war, and Israel was fighting for its survival. After all, only a few years before that, we the Allies had killed 100,000 civilians in one night in the firebombing of Tokyo. War is difficult, and cruel, and I think it behooves us not to apply some very strict standard to Israel that we are not applying to other people

    Millions of Germans were forced out of their homes and made refugees in the aftermath of World War 2, as Poland's borders were pushed west at the expense of Germany. That is, unfortunately, life.

    Having said that, the majority of cases where Palestinians left their homes was voluntarily to escape fighitng of both sides, or in response to radio broadcasts

    Who is they, though? If we're going to say the very first place, then it was the Kingdom of Israel. If we are going to say the "last" first place before the mandate, then it belongs to the Ottoman Turks.

    There had been quite a lot of violence against Jewish people in Palestine, all throughout that period

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

    And I can understand that the Jews of Palestine would not feel safe under the Palestinian Arabs, after all, their religious leader the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had met with Hitler during World War 2 and made an alliance with him

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Ami...olf_Hitler.jpg

    I can understand that, given the Jews had been killed in their millions, that other countries had not exactly opened up their gates to Jewish refugees pre-1939, and that many Palestinians had sympathies with the Third Reich, that the Jews of Palestine would say, "We cannot rely on anyone else for our safety, we can only rely on ourselves and a nation-state is the way to do that"
    War is war but a war that kills innocents by order of the state is never just in my opinion. This is why I dislike methods such as bombing. But I wouldn't have any qualms with killing the supporters of the previous regime, for example civilian members of the Nazi party.

    When I say I mean the current occupants, not any particular ethnic group or demographic. To summarise, there's absolutely nothing wrong with many Jews living in Palestine but I disagree that it's justified to create a separate state. For example, if I went into an area alongside a few hundred of my kind and some of the original inhabitants treated us unjustly I wouldn't expect the right to be able to enforce my own state.
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    (Original post by LivngForSummer)
    Where were you? Over 2,000 civilians dead, mostly women and children.
    An ethnic cleansing generally refers to an attempt to wipe out the population of a certain area, or relocate them.

    2000 dead, the majority of which were indeed civilians (though that's hardly Israel's fault), doesn't make a dent in a population of 1.8 million. (By the way where did you read that it was mainly women and children? That sounds very far fetched.)

    If Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse the population of Gaza, it would not have forced all the Jews living there to leave (as it did in 2005). In fact, this is the only ethnic cleansing that Israel has in fact carried out recently, though nobody seems to have a problem with that one.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Which people? People who support racist theocrats? Or people who support the democratic process?
    Generally any civilian who dies as a result of this conflict based on ancient prejudices and hate. It's a very straightforward thing to understand. Palestine Israel because Israel did this because Palestine did that because Israel did that. This is all bull ****; it's a drawn out war between two states which the civilian population are suffering from and generally don't want to continue.
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    (Original post by Jacky Hearts)
    Generally any civilian who dies as a result of this conflict based on ancient prejudices and hate. It's a very straightforward thing to understand. Palestine Israel because Israel did this because Palestine did that because Israel did that. This is all bull ****; it's a drawn out war between two states which the civilian population are suffering from and generally don't want to continue.
    You could equally have said during WWII that civilians die on all sides. It wouldn't inform you of the correct side to support or how to end the war.
 
 
 
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