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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    You could equally have said during WWII that civilians die on all sides. It wouldn't inform you of the correct side to support or how to end the war.
    Well yeah, you can actually say that about World War 2.

    The only single notable historian who argues that Germans were in favour of the holocaust was Goldhagen, and his analysis has all kinds of problems, such as selective evidence use and blatant anti-German racism. Generally most historians agree that normal German civilians didn't support the holocaust but were apathatic to it (in the words of Kershaw 'the road to Auschwitz was built by vengeance but paved with apathy) and a polymorphous system of control.

    Support for the second world war itself, at least amongst non-Nazi Germans, was based on several propaganda myths dating back from World War 1 and shortly after, as well as resentment to the Treaty of Versailles.
    If you've been force fed propaganda and the only evidence you really have access to supports that propaganda then it's not your fault if you believe it. Hence why Germans believed the Second World War was justified. This is also why the limited anti-Israeli racism amongst some normal Palestinians should not be condemned so brashly.
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    (Original post by Protégé)
    What? Isn't that like me moving to America and saying "What right does Obama have to rule over me?"
    That's not a valid comparison given, unlike the Jews are to Israel, you are not originally native to North America. And there is a pre-existing state in America. There was no pre-existing Palestinian state.

    You do realise that Israel is where Jews originally come from, don't you?

    To summarise, there's absolutely nothing wrong with many Jews living in Palestine
    That is where you and many Arabs, both today and in 1948, would be in disagreement then; the Arabs were willing to use violence to bring about their goal of a Jewish-free Palestine. They failed in that attempt. Personally, I am glad they failed.

    Out of interest, do you think that morally speaking it's better that the Israelis won the 1948 War, or that it would have been more moral for the Arabs to win that war and cleanse Palestine of Jews?

    And in case you think I exaggerate, the following was said by no less than the Secretary-General of the Arab League, the titular head of all Arabs; he said that if Israel declared a state the Arabs would effect "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades".

    Given those threats, given senior Palestinians religious leaders had been close to the Third Reich, I simply do not accept your assertion that the Jews could have safely lived under a Palestinian Arab regime.

    Also, what injustice is it to a Palestinian living in Hebron if Jews in Haifa and Tel Aviv have their own government? How does that negatively affect him? The only way you can say it is an injustice for a Jewish state to exist is if you subscribe to a kind of Muslim chauvinism that says they cannot live under a non-Muslim government, even if it is democratic

    and some of the original inhabitants treated us unjustly I wouldn't expect the right to be able to enforce my own state.
    The original, original inhabitants were the Jews. In 1948 there were 600,000 living in Palestine, and they were being threatened with death by their Arab neighbours. I personally do not think your position that they should just live under an Arab government is tenable.

    It causes no inherent injustice to a Palestinian Arab to live in a democratic Jewish state; indeed, the 1.1 million Arab Israelis are, by and large, happy to live in Iisrael and polls show the vast majority do not wawnt to live under the Palestinian Authority. Arab Israelis, living within the 1967 borders (not the ones in Gaza and West Bank) enjoy more democratic rights than Arabs anywhere else in the Mid East.

    If I were, for example, a young Arab Israeli who happened to be gay, I would be thanking my lucky stars I was born in Israel
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    (Original post by Jacky Hearts)
    Well yeah, you can actually say that about World War 2.

    The only single notable historian who argues that Germans were in favour of the holocaust was Goldhagen, and his analysis has all kinds of problems, such as selective evidence use and blatant anti-German racism. Generally most historians agree that normal German civilians didn't support the holocaust but were apathatic to it (in the words of Kershaw 'the road to Auschwitz was built by vengeance but paved with apathy) and a polymorphous system of control.

    Support for the second world war itself, at least amongst non-Nazi Germans, was based on several propaganda myths dating back from World War 1 and shortly after, as well as resentment to the Treaty of Versailles.
    If you've been force fed propaganda and the only evidence you really have access to supports that propaganda then it's not your fault if you believe it. Hence why Germans believed the Second World War was justified. This is also why the limited anti-Israeli racism amongst some normal Palestinians should not be condemned so brashly.
    Sure, I agree that the majority of Germans are not and were not evil. Similarly, the majority in Gaza who voted for theocrats are/were not evil. But both sides support evil people, which is why you can't be so glib as to say "people are suffering, ergo we should support them and whatever they support". The British used barbarism to defeat Nazi Germany, but once that was done they helped rebuild German society for the benefit of Germans. That's what Israel would do if it managed to defeat the theocratic Palestinian cause.
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    In which case there are more Israeli Jews than Palestinian Muslims, so the Israelis will rule that one state. There are about 6 million Jews and 4 million Palestinians, including WB/Gaza
    There are about 4.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, and about 1.6 million in Israel. That makes 6 million and puts the proportions at more like 50:50.

    In fact, some far-right Israelis have called for exactly that; for Israel to completely annex the West Bank and give its citizens voting rights
    The first part yes, the second not so much. They generally call for the Palestinians to be put in some sort of bantustan-like zone, though a few are convinced they can expel them to Jordan somehow.



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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    An ethnic cleansing generally refers to an attempt to wipe out the population of a certain area, or relocate them.

    2000 dead, the majority of which were indeed civilians (though that's hardly Israel's fault),
    I would just add to that, about 700 of those were militants. While I deplore any civilian death, a death rate of one militant for every two civilians, in an extremely built up urban area, does not suggest an Israeli Defence Force that is desperately trying to kill as many civilians as they can.

    It is mainly a function of Hamas' tactic of firing their rockets from built up urban areas rather than from the many open fields in Gaza on the eastern side of the strip, and their policy of protecting their leadership and soldiers, and rockets, in bunkers while denying the ordinary civilian population access to said bunkers.

    Having said all that, you are absolutely right in everything you have said. The charge of ethnic cleansing is, on its face, ludicrous. The only ethnicities that have been "cleansed" from Gaza, as you astutely pointed out, are the Jews, who were evicted by their own government (and rightly, in my opinion, as an attempt, doomed though it was, to move the peace process forward) and the Christians of Gaza, most of whom have left (many of them did the traditional Christmas trip to Bethlehem, and then said to the Israelis "Please don't make us go back")
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Sure, I agree that the majority of Germans are not and were not evil. Similarly, the majority in Gaza who voted for theocrats are/were not evil. But both sides support evil people, which is why you can't be so glib as to say "people are suffering, ergo we should support them and whatever they support". The British used barbarism to defeat Nazi Germany, but once that was done they helped rebuild German society for the benefit of Germans. That's what Israel would do if it managed to defeat the theocratic Palestinian cause.
    That wasn't my argument. I don't support either states as both are destructive and support killing civilians. The only solution I would morally advocate is a popular uprising against both states.

    I don't agree. Isreal's government has proved to be extremely heavy handed.
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    That's not a valid comparison given, unlike the Jews are to Israel, you are not originally native to North America. And there is a pre-existing state in America. There was no pre-existing Palestinian state.

    You do realise that Israel is where Jews originally come from, don't you?
    Ah, point taken.

    Yes, but I don't believe that it gives them rights to take parts of a country just because of their ancestry. For me it's about the people living there, not about their ethnicity.

    That is where you and many Arabs, both today and in 1948, would be in disagreement then; the Arabs were willing to use violence to bring about their goal of a Jewish-free Palestine. They failed in that attempt. Personally, I am glad they failed.

    Out of interest, do you think that morally speaking it's better that the Israelis won the 1948 War, or that it would have been more moral for the Arabs to win that war and cleanse Palestine of Jews?

    And in case you think I exaggerate, the following was said by no less than the Secretary-General of the Arab League, the titular head of all Arabs; he said that if Israel declared a state the Arabs would effect "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades".

    Given those threats, given senior Palestinians religious leaders had been close to the Third Reich, I simply do not accept your assertion that the Jews could have safely lived under a Palestinian Arab regime.

    Also, what injustice is it to a Palestinian living in Hebron if Jews in Haifa and Tel Aviv have their own government? How does that negatively affect him? The only way you can say it is an injustice for a Jewish state to exist is if you subscribe to a kind of Arab Muslim chauvinism that says that the Arabs own the Middle East and their blood / DNA entitles them to rule over it and everyone who lives in it.
    Obviously it would be better for the Israelis to win, they wouldn't exterminate the civilians on the other side.

    I never asserted that the Jewish people could live safely in Palestine. I never even implied it.

    If there was not a Palestinian state what was there? Wasn't there a government there at all? If so then wouldn't that government have a valid stake over the land? I don't think one group is more justified to own a piece of land just because they are formally recognised.

    The original, original inhabitants were the Jews. In 1948 there were 600,000 living in Palestine, and they were being threatened with death by their Arab neighbours. I personally do not think your position that they should just live under an Arab government is tenable.

    It causes no inherent injustice to a Palestinian Arab to live in a democratic Jewish state; indeed, the 1.1 million Arab Israelis are, by and large, happy to live in Iisrael and polls show the vast majority do not wawnt to live under the PA
    I'm not saying that they should live there, I think that they should have lived in safer places. Although if they wanted to live there with no compromise I'd rather have them live there than attempt a partition. Bare in mind that I'm not well informed on the topic of Israel and Palestine so after researching more I may very much look back and disagree with my current stance.

    I'm a Muslim and I would rather live in Israel than Palestine but I still do not agree fully with Israel. Plus, I very much dislike Netanyahu.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    The British used barbarism to defeat Nazi Germany, but once that was done they helped rebuild German society for the benefit of Germans. That's what Israel would do if it managed to defeat the theocratic Palestinian cause.
    They are in a hell of a fix. Many in Netanyahu's government were calling on him to go in and topple Hamas once and for all, and the IDF advised him that they were capable of doing so if ordered ("Go in and pull them out by their ears" was the phrase).

    What they were worried about was what would come after if they toppled Hamas. In recent months, there have been backchannel communications between Hamas and Israel about the worrying growth of ISIS in Gaza.

    If only the Palestinians had stood behind Fatah in Gaza, at this point Gaza would probably be thriving and I actually think we probably would have had a final settlement by now if we hadn't had the three Gaza conflicts that came from Hamas provoking Israel
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    (Original post by Protégé)
    Ah, point taken.

    Yes, but I don't believe that it gives them rights to take parts of a country just because of their ancestry. For me it's about the people living there, not about their ethnicity.
    I totally agree with you on that point, which is why I put very little stock in the fact Jews are from there and put 99% of the legitimacy of the state of Israel on the fact that there were 600,000 Jews living there in 1948, and it was sensible for them to have a state.

    Obviously it would be better for the Israelis to win, they wouldn't exterminate the civilians on the other side.

    I never asserted that the Jewish people could live safely in Palestine. I never even implied it.
    Apologies, I misinterpreted you. Sorry about that.

    If there was not a Palestinian state what was there? Wasn't there a government there at all? If so then wouldn't that government have a valid stake over the land?.
    The previous imperial owner was the Ottoman Empire. They were defeated by the British, who were given responsibility for Palestine through a "mandate" under the League of Nations. By 1948, the British were sick of it and wanted to leave, and the United Nations as the successor organisation had the responsibility to work out what to do with it

    I'm a Muslim and I would rather live in Israel than Palestine but I still do not agree fully with Israel. Plus, I very much dislike Netanyahu.
    We are in total agreement about Netanyahu then lol, I support the existnece of the Sate of Israel but I despise Netanyahu. He's horrible, and I dislike the settlements in intensely. I want, more than anything, to see the two sides living in peace.

    This is why the issue is so darn complicated; I disagree with many things Israel does. On the other hand, I think they have a right to exist, and I acknowledge that the human rights and living conditions of those people who live within the 1967 borders, in the propr state rather than territories, is quite good. If you are a minority, gay or Christian or Ba'hai or what have you, then Israel is a safe place to live.

    As I said, very complicated. No side is pure good or pure evil, both have their legitimate claims and both have their crimes they have to answer for, imho
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    I totally agree with you on that point, which is why I put very little stock in the fact Jews are from there and put 99% of the legitimacy of the state of Israel on the fact that there were 600,000 Jews living there in 1948, and it was sensible for them to have a state.

    Apologies, I misinterpreted you. Sorry about that.
    In that case I agree with the State somewhat, I suppose. They were being targeted and since you've shown me that the occupants of the land were quite prejudiced towards the Jewish I guess I understand why one would want a separate state, even if they took it by force. The main thing for me is the eviction of Palestinians. If the Jewish were granted some land with no harm to the Palestinian people I would have no problem with it. I believe that it's hard to find a just war nowadays since many countries use selfish and underhanded tactics and do not distinguish the enemy from everyday civilians.

    No problem.

    The previous imperial owner was the Ottoman Empire. They were defeated by the British, who were given responsibility for Palestine through a "mandate" under the League of Nations. By 1948, the British were sick of it and wanted to leave, and the United Nations as the successor organisation had the responsibility to work out what to do with it
    Ah, a lot more complicated than I had thought. I thought that there was a Palestinian state beforehand.

    We are in total agreement about Netanyahu then lol, I support the existnece of the Sate of Israel but I despise Netanyahu. He's horrible, and I dislike the settlements in intensely. I want, more than anything, to see the two sides living in peace.

    This is why the issue is so darn complicated; I disagree with many things Israel does. On the other hand, I think they have a right to exist, and I acknowledge that the human rights and living conditions of those people who live within the 1967 borders, in the propr state rather than territories, is quite good. If you are a minority, gay or Christian or Ba'hai or what have you, then Israel is a safe place to live.

    As I said, very complicated. No side is pure good or pure evil, both have their legitimate claims and both have their crimes they have to answer for, imho
    I legitimately barely know anything about him, I just saw that he cheated on two of his wives and marked him down as scum before even looking at the way he handles the conflict. Netanyahu allows his forces to target schools, it's not like the IDF just randomly massacred people, it was approved of by the army. Didn't Netanyahu also say something like "America is easy to push around" or something to that effect? If I was Obama I'd completely withdraw support because of that comment, wouldn't help a country that doesn't respect my own.

    I'd rather have Hamas and IDF completely destroy each other. In my opinion both Hamas and the government of Israel are morally reprehensible.
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    (Original post by Protégé)
    In that case I agree with the State somewhat, I suppose. They were being targeted and since you've shown me that the occupants of the land were quite prejudiced towards the Jewish I guess I understand why one would want a separate state, even if they took it by force. The main thing for me is the eviction of Palestinians. If the Jewish were granted some land with no harm to the Palestinian people I would have no problem with it. I believe that it's hard to find a just war nowadays since many countries use selfish and underhanded tactics and do not distinguish the enemy from everyday civilians.

    No problem.
    That's really decent of you to say, and I agree with you about countries using underhanded tactics. I suppose human nature can be quite violent, and people will often feel themsevles unconstrained by any sense of moral boundaries.

    But I do feel some hope, in that 30 years ago it would have seemed incomprehensible that the Nationalists and Unionists in Northern Ireland would be in government together, and that there would be peace. It can happen, I have my fingers crossed

    I legitimately barely know anything about him, I just saw that he cheated on two of his wives and marked him down as scum before even looking at the way he handles the conflict.
    I can't stand Netanyahu, and he is a deeply immoral person, particularly in his rejection of a two-state solution. I see the Gaza conflict differently, but definitely on settlements and the peace process, he is immoral and not peaceable.

    His rhetoric also led to the assassination of the Prime Minister of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin. Rabin made peace with the PLO, and were in a process of making a Palestinian state. Netanyahu went around preaching to crowds that Rabin was a traitor, and unsurprisingly a nutjob took him at his word, and shot Rabin

    Netanyahu allows his forces to target schools, it's not like the IDF just randomly massacred people, it was approved of by the army
    In fairness I think you might have misunderstood a report or news story. I've never seen any report to the effect that the IDF high command has targeted civilians deliberately, that would have caused worldwide outrage even from Israel's allies

    In terms of targeting schools, the only thing I can remember recently was that a Hamas rocket hit an UNRWA school in the Gaza Strip.

    There may be examples where, during conflict (because the kids don't go to school when the war is on), that Hamas had taken over a school and was using it to launch rockets, in which case it would be a legitimate target under international law if the students were not present.

    There is no doubt that in a war where Hamas is firing rockets from built-up urban areas in Gaza (rather than using the open fields in Gaza, where if Israel fired back it wouldn't kill civilians), then Israel's response is unfortunately going to result in some civilian deaths. And there were some unfortunate incidents because in war mistakes are made, sometimes technology malfunctions (such as a bomb having an electronic malfunction that causes the guidance system to go off course). That doesn't mean that the accident / unfortunate result was planned by Israel, it's that war is messy.

    I am absolutely and implacably opposed to the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, I want them to pull out and make peace. It kills me knowing that Israeli soldiers at checkpoints, maybe 18 or 19 and just out of school, are in the position of saying to a middle-aged Palestinians, parents, workers, ordinary people, whether they can go through yes or no. It is humiliating. I want it to end.

    But that it is a completely different proposition, in my opinion, from the issue of whether Israel has a right to respond when it is being bombarded by rockets from Hamas. Personally, I don't think Hamas and Israel are morally equal (for example, I'm gay and under Hamas, it is quite possible I would be killed. In Israel proper, I would live in peace. Arab Muslims in Israel proper have the vote in Israeli elections; Palestinians in Gaza can't even elect their own government)

    As I said, it's complex, but I do think Israel has a right to respond to rocket bombardment
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    people who choose to support isreal just because theyre against hamas are as bad as those who support hamas

    and for those people who claim that hamas "human shield" is responsible for the high death toll in gaza read the whole article
    http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...-shields/18534
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    (Original post by the north)
    and for those people who claim that hamas "human shield" is responsible for the high death toll
    Those people would be right. It's pretty straightforward, Hamas told people not to pay attention to IDF warnings, which is as good as a death sentence

    On 10 July the UN released a situation report which deplored the civilian casualties but added: “In most cases, prior to the attacks, residents have been warned to leave, either via phone calls by the Israel military or by the firing of warning missiles.”

    But the Hamas-run Palestinian Authority’s Ministry of Interior has told residents not to pay attention to the IDF warnings.It issued a directive “calling all our people not to deal or pay attention to the psychological warfare carried out by the occupation through rumours that broadcast across his media and delivering publications and communications on the phones of citizens”
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    (Original post by the north)
    and for those people who claim that hamas "human shield" is responsible for the high death toll in gaza read the whole article
    Furthermore, the death toll amongst the Palestinians would have been nothing like what it ended up being if Hamas had,

    (1) Fired their rockets from open fields in Gaza, instead of firing the rockets from built-up civilian areas knowing it would provoke an Israeli retaliation

    (2) Had allowed Palestinian civilians access to bunkers in which the Hamas leadership was hiding, instead of using it to protect themselves, their soldiers and their rockets

    There is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas. Israel is a legitimate nation-state whose military operations are designed to protect their own people. Hamas is a terrorist group whose military operations are designed specifically to lead to the deaths of their own people for propaganda purposes
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Furthermore, the death toll amongst the Palestinians would have been nothing like what it ended up being if Hamas had,

    (1) Fired their rockets from open fields in Gaza, instead of firing the rockets from built-up civilian areas knowing it would provoke an Israeli retaliation

    (2) Had allowed Palestinian civilians access to bunkers in which the Hamas leadership was hiding, instead of using it to protect themselves, their soldiers and their rockets

    There is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas. Israel is a legitimate nation-state whose military operations are designed to protect their own people. Hamas is a terrorist group whose military operations are designed specifically to lead to the deaths of their own people for propaganda purposes
    It's almost like Israel didn't fire rockets into buildings they knew were occupied or shoot on sight anyone above 1.4 metres and vaguely male shaped, before branding them a terrorist threat...

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...191146520.html

    Whilst it's disgusting that anyone would attempt to base anything on israeli propaganda, those liberals (ugh), or white people who believe they can change the world by being white, or even those genuinely interested in doing something right (though if so, you shouldn't be here), oppression against muslims and islamic culture happens elsewhere too, and they are all valid battles to fight. This is leaving out all the other atrocities committed by western countries; australia for example.

    The israeli-palestinian conflict has only come about due to israel's standing as a white, western first world country, and its ties in america and the UK. Let's not forget that when we might otherwise think we're helping a good cause.
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    Lol, anything on this site that is remotely pro-Palestine is classed as Anti-semitism... what a joke.

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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Those people would be right. It's pretty straightforward, Hamas told people not to pay attention to IDF warnings, which is as good as a death sentence



    handpicking qoutes wont help your case mate. i understand arabic and what the man said in the video is that hamas encourages people to act as human shields because it is effective in stopping the occupation. nowhere did he claim they force people to stay in their homes. futhermore the fact that isreal targets people home even if they do give warning is a WAR CRIME. and before you reply with something along the lines of hamas terrorist activity let me say , i dont support hamas , i just think those who support hamas and isreal are in the same boat
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Those people would be right. It's pretty straightforward, Hamas told people not to pay attention to IDF warnings, which is as good as a death sentence



    handpicking qoutes wont help your case mate read the whole article . i understand arabic and what the man said in the video is that hamas encourages people to act as human shields because it is effective in stopping the occupation. nowhere did he claim they force people to stay in their homes. futhermore the fact that isreal targets people home even if they do give warning is a WAR CRIME.
    and before you reply with something along the lines of hamas terrorist activity let me say , i dont support hamas , i just think those who support hamas and isreal are in the same boat
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Furthermore, the death toll amongst the Palestinians would have been nothing like what it ended up being if Hamas had,

    (1) Fired their rockets from open fields in Gaza, instead of firing the rockets from built-up civilian areas knowing it would provoke an Israeli retaliation

    (2) Had allowed Palestinian civilians access to bunkers in which the Hamas leadership was hiding, instead of using it to protect themselves, their soldiers and their rockets

    There is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas. Israel is a legitimate nation-state whose military operations are designed to protect their own people. Hamas is a terrorist group whose military operations are designed specifically to lead to the deaths of their own people for propaganda purposes
    why you replying to me like im some hamas supporter . theyre both as bad as each other in my books. still doesnt change the fact that isreal actions is simply collective punishment of the Palestinians for demanding their land back
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    (Original post by the north)
    isreal actions is simply collective punishment of the Palestinians for demanding their land back
    That assertion makes absolutely no sense in light of the fact that Israel completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2005, including forcibly evicting all the Jewish settlers, at great political cost to the government, in order to hand it over fully to the Palestinian Authority.

    There was no blockade at that time. That only came later when Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, and then started bombarding Israel with rocket artillery, mortars etc Btw, searching the goods being imported into a state that is regularlly rocketing you for illegal weapons is not collective punishment.

    And dropping a bomb on a Hamas rocket factory or leadership bunker is not collective punishment
 
 
 
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