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    (Original post by the north)
    handpicking qoutes wont help your case mate. i understand arabic and what the man said in the video is that hamas encourages people to act as human shields because it is effective in stopping the occupation. nowhere did he claim they force people to stay in their homes. futhermore the fact that isreal targets people home even if they do give warning is a WAR CRIME. and before you reply with something along the lines of hamas terrorist activity let me say , i dont support hamas , i just think those who support hamas and isreal are in the same boat
    There's a fundamental misunderstanding from those who believe in the divine right that Hamas is Palestine. This is used to justify the whole "everyone in palestine is a threat so we must bomb this house or this school." the most common I find is the "Hamas has infiltrated..." and it's bull****.

    over 1500 palestinian civilians died last year as a result of the conflict. The US claims that "our hearts break for the loss of every civilian, Israeli and Palestinian." Surely they'd have suffered chest pains by now?

    How can Hillary Clinton say that and then a few seconds later pledge to improve security forces in Israel?

    (Original post by Enginerd.)
    Lol, anything on this site that is remotely pro-Palestine is classed as Anti-semitism... what a joke.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    you're telling me.
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    (Original post by the north)
    i understand arabic and what the man said in the video is that hamas encourages people to act as human shields
    Exactly. And of course, firing rockets from civilian urban areas is itself the use of human shields, knowing that Israel will retaliate

    Also, telling civilians to ignore IDF warnings to leave their homes ahead of a strike is using them as a human shield. In the latter case, they kind of are forcing them to be human shields.

    because it is effective in stopping the occupation
    So the occupation has stopped now? By the way, an Israeli bomb dropped on the house of a senior Hamas terrorist being used as a command centre is not "the occupation"

    futhermore the fact that isreal targets people home even if they do give warning is a WAR CRIME.
    Actually it's not; you are merely revealing your ignorance of international law. It is absolutely justifiable to target a house if it is being used as a command centre / rocket storage / observation post / safe house, and it is absolutely justifiable to target a house if it is incidental to the fact that you are targeting an enemy combatant.

    What a commander needs to do is weigh the proportionality of the likelihood of civilian injury against the value of the military objective. But the mere fact it is a house does not mean it is a war crime, that is just legal ignorance.

    I note with interest you failed to respond to the fact that Hamas encouraged the civiliians to ignore IDF warnings, which almost certainly would result in their death
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    (Original post by Guills on wheels)
    over 1500 palestinian civilians died last year as a result of the conflict
    How many Palestinian civilians would have died if Hamas did not start bombarding Israel with rockets in late June? How many civilians would have died if Hamas had accepted the ceasefire offered by Israel in July, rather than waiting until August to cease the conflict for no additional gain and much additional loss of life?

    By the way, in addition to those 1500 civilians, about 700 Hamas and IJ militants were killed in Operation Protective Edge. Given there were several thousand sorties and bombs dropped, that suggests quite a high degree of precision in targeting.
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    That's a rather characteristic rant, it has all the elements; bemoaning the evil whitey, Muslims are always victims, Israelis are evil European settlers.

    It is quite funny that you should say that, though; anyone who has travelled to Israel knows that about half of the people you see there do not look European at all, they are descended from Middle Eastern Jews.

    And the idea that Israel is some evil white country, when it has Ethiopian Jews... mate you are basically just a prejudiced bigot

    (IDF Soldiers, Ethiopian Jews)





    Err, what? Australian atrocities? What are you talking about?
    I'm white. it's not relevant, but the WSC exists. I'm not saying all white people are evil ffs.

    They will be considered white. How many times have you heard genuine direct discrimination against a jew for his race, compared to anyone of, say... south asian or african descent? It's not about how they look, so much as how they speak and the sort of support that is available to jewish communities at the more powerful end of western governance.

    What the ****? "we have some black people so you're racist for saying we commit war crimes?" Are you genuinely serious? Israel has Ethiopian Jews?! Sure, gold ****ing star for you. It makes no difference.

    https://newmatilda.com/2015/02/01/hu...cing-australia

    Torturing kids isn't atrocities? http://www.globalresearch.ca/child-d...fugees/5436149
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    (Original post by the north)
    hamas encourages people to act as human shields because it is effective in stopping the occupation
    Why would that be effective in halting an Israeli airstrike?

    I thought your position is that the evil murderous Israelis want to kill as many Palestinians as possible? If it's true that acting as a human shield is effective in stopping Israeli airstrikes, that merely confirms that the Israelis are considerate of civilian casualties and will cancel a strike where the civilian death is disproportionate to the military objective (i.e. meets their obligation under international law)
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    That assertion makes absolutely no sense in light of the fact that Israel completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2005, including forcibly evicting all the Jewish settlers, at great political cost to the government, in order to hand it over fully to the Palestinian Authority.

    There was no blockade at that time. That only came later when Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, and then started bombarding Israel with rocket artillery, mortars etc Btw, searching the goods being imported into a state that is regularlly rocketing you for illegal weapons is not collective punishment.

    And dropping a bomb on a Hamas rocket factory or leadership bunker is not collective punishment
    palestine does not just consist of gaza mate what about the settlement in the west bank, they dont look like theyre gonna be removed anytime soon. and yes bombing the **** out of gaza indiscriminately (see the link ) isnt collective punishment then i dont know what is. more than 500 children killed is not collective punishment? no concrete for repairs and food counted down to the last calorie is not collective punishment? if i lived in gaza and isreal bombed my house killing my family for no reason whatsover than ill fire rockets into isreal all day everyday. if isreal wants to stop rocket fire from gaza then how about stop killing the population thats just more recruits for hamas


    and about the link isreal own soliders say the were ordered to shoot indiscriminately justify this then mate
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-32581004
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    How many Palestinian civilians would have died if Hamas did not start bombarding Israel with rockets in late June? How many civilians would have died if Hamas had accepted the ceasefire offered by Israel in July, rather than waiting until August to cease the conflict for no additional gain and much additional loss of life?

    By the way, in addition to those 1500 civilians, about 700 Hamas and IJ militants were killed in Operation Protective Edge. Given there were several thousand sorties and bombs dropped, that suggests quite a high degree of precision in targeting.
    Literally, this is all ****e. The only question we should ask is: how many civilians would have died had israel not deliberately targeted buildings and people who had not shown any threat whatsoever to IDF forces. Did you read the al-jazeera article I first posted?

    Please explain how killing twice as many civilians as you were meant to kill Hamas militants is precision. Thank you.

    I mean, if we're going to talk about precision, how about 5 civilians but 66 Israeli soldiers killed? Who's the terrorist organisation now?
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    (Original post by Guills on wheels)
    I'm not saying all white people are evil ffs.
    So why do you keep bringing up this thing about them being white? Especially given so many Israelis are not?

    They will be considered white. How many times have you heard genuine direct discrimination against a jew for his race, compared to anyone of, say... south asian or african descent?
    Erm... well there was this big thing called the Holocaust, where 6 million Jews were killed merely because of their Jewish identity. Does that count? No, you're right; Jews have had it really easy throughout history

    What the ****? "we have some black people so you're racist for saying we commit war crimes?
    Nope. I'm just pointing out how clueless you are when you are calling Israel a "white" country (as if that even matters anyway)

    The report seems to claim that detaining people for immigration offences is torture. This is ludicrous on its face; there is no country in the world that does not use immigration detention in one form or another

    That includes pretty much all of Europe and this country. Then again, it wouldn't be as satisfying to be criticising Europe, would it? You're just indulging in the typical leftist hatred of successful new world countries like Australia and the United States, something that is common amongst arrogant middle-class leftists in this country most of whom have never even travelled to the US or Australia

    Have you?
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Exactly. And of course, firing rockets from civilian urban areas is itself the use of human shields, knowing that Israel will retaliate

    Also, telling civilians to ignore IDF warnings to leave their homes ahead of a strike is using them as a human shield. In the latter case, they kind of are forcing them to be human shields.



    So the occupation has stopped now? By the way, an Israeli bomb dropped on the house of a senior Hamas terrorist being used as a command centre is not "the occupation"



    Actually it's not; you are merely revealing your ignorance of international law. It is absolutely justifiable to target a house if it is being used as a command centre / rocket storage / observation post / safe house, and it is absolutely justifiable to target a house if it is incidental to the fact that you are targeting an enemy combatant.

    What a commander needs to do is weigh the proportionality of the likelihood of civilian injury against the value of the military objective. But the mere fact it is a house does not mean it is a war crime, that is just legal ignorance.

    I note with interest you failed to respond to the fact that Hamas encouraged the civiliians to ignore IDF warnings, which almost certainly would result in their death
    encouraged =/= forced
    there is no evidence of force just encouragement, futhermore the same artcile it suggests that people actually do it on their own to stop their homes being bombed but hey isreal dont give a **** if its a home,mosque, school or hospital

    dont act like bombing of civlian homes is not a war crime and no bombing houses is not a war crime just when there kids in there and guess what isreal bombs both kinds the one with and without children. your argument is almost claiming that isreal targeted only homes of combatants of hamas when infact in the latest 2014 events 30% of gaza population was displaced 7000 "homes"(the ones that a war crime to target) for 10,000 families destroyed

    and again why you acting like i support hamas, i agree with you hamas are evil but you need to understand isreal is just as bad
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    How many Palestinian civilians would have died if Hamas did not start bombarding Israel with rockets in late June? How many civilians would have died if Hamas had accepted the ceasefire offered by Israel in July, rather than waiting until August to cease the conflict for no additional gain and much additional loss of life?

    By the way, in addition to those 1500 civilians, about 700 Hamas and IJ militants were killed in Operation Protective Edge. Given there were several thousand sorties and bombs dropped, that suggests quite a high degree of precision in targeting.
    just to follow up, as a percentage of militants killed; for israel, it's 2.05 civilians for every Hamas militant killed, and for Hamas, it's 0.08 civilians for every soldier killed. For every Israeli civilian killed, 296 palestinians died in that conflict.
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    (Original post by Guills on wheels)
    how many civilians would have died had israel not deliberately targeted buildings
    So Israel targeted buildings...? I'm not sure if I am supposed to be outraged. Surely what is important is what is inside those buildings?

    Please explain how killing twice as many civilians as you were meant to kill Hamas militants is precision.
    In historical military terms, it is quite precise. The fact about 1500 civilians were killed from around 5,000 bombs dropped, we are talking about 250lb bombs, suggests a high level of precision. I'm not sure why I'm giving you quantitative facts, you lack the understanding and knowledge of military technology and international law to judge such things. Perhaps it's better to leave to you the screechy, hysterical, slogany type stuff.

    I mean, if we're going to talk about precision, how about 5 civilians but 66 Israeli soldiers killed? Who's the terrorist organisation now?
    Only 5 Israeli civilians were killed because Israel built bunkers for its citizens to take shelter in, and they built a missile system called Iron Dome to protect their civilians.

    Hamas built bunkers to store its rockets in, and placed its rockets in civilian houses and areas.

    So basically, Israel uses missiles to protect its citizens sheltering in bunkers, Hamas uses civilians to protect its missiles and soldiers/leadership sheltering in bunkers.

    That tells you everything about their relative value of life. Israel values human life (as was admitted on the thread earlier, Hamas knows human shields are effective in stopping air strikes). Hamas does not value human life, and they revel in dead Palestinian children.

    As to the Israeli soldiers killed, Israel sent its soldiers into Gaza to root out some of the command centres and rocket storage bunkers. That is why some of their soldiers were killed. That was entirely incidental to Hamas' overall campaign of war crimes, firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately at Israeli civilians
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Why would that be effective in halting an Israeli airstrike?

    I thought your position is that the evil murderous Israelis want to kill as many Palestinians as possible? If it's true that acting as a human shield is effective in stopping Israeli airstrikes, that merely confirms that the Israelis are considerate of civilian casualties and will cancel a strike where the civilian death is disproportionate to the military objective (i.e. meets their obligation under international law)
    i never said that ,the man in the video did so try asking him the question
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    (Original post by Guills on wheels)
    For every Israeli civilian killed, 296 palestinians died in that conflict.
    So to make it more "equal", you'd like more Israeli civilians to die?

    I'm not sure Israel should apologise for investing in civil defence and bunkers, and Iron Dome, to protect its civilians while Hamas invested in bunkers and tunnels to protect its leadership and stocks of rockets while civilians were placed in the line of fire above the surface.

    That tells you everything about Hamas' contempt for human life
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    (Original post by the north)
    encouraged =/= forced
    So you agree with Hamas encouraging its citizens to ignore IDF warnings? You think that is moral? Wow, you really have lost all human empathy in pursuit of your hysterical anti-Israel agenda.

    As to the rest of the unlettered rant, it's barely readable; pockmarked with factual errors, misspelled words and a complete failure of punctuation. I find your apologia for terrorism tiresome, and I should head off to bed.
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    (Original post by the north)
    palestine does not just consist of gaza mate what about the settlement in the west bank, they dont look like theyre gonna be removed anytime soon. and yes bombing the **** out of gaza indiscriminately


    I think you are confused about what the word indiscriminate means. An Israeli jet, acting on intelligence that a Hamas terrorist is at a certain location, and dropping a guided smart bomb of the lowest yield on it, is not indiscriminate. And that kind of operation is what Operation Protective Edge mainly consisted of.

    As to the BBC link, that had nothing about indiscriminate air strikes. As to ground operations, they are inherently messy. That's what happens when you send an army into a city centre in an urban battle; civilians get killed because soldiers will always err on the side of caution, particularly in an urban setting where they are constantly fighting off ambushes, snipers, suicide bombers, IEDs etc

    It makes me sick that Hamas continued to fire rockets knowing that Israel would be forced to send their troops in. The fact you completely ignore that induced Israel to send in its troops in the first place, your implicit suggestion that somehow all these Israeli operations are happening in a vacuum, suggests the moral centres of your brain are undeveloped in the extreme.
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    So you agree with Hamas encouraging its citizens to ignore IDF warnings? You think that is moral? Wow, you really have lost all human empathy in pursuit of your hysterical anti-Israel agenda.

    As to the rest of the unlettered rant, it's barely readable; pockmarked with factual errors, misspelled words and a complete failure of punctuation. I find your apologia for terrorism tiresome, and I should head off to bed.
    aha im pretty sure you could have read what i wrote just becuase im abit dyxleic dont change the fact that every reply i sent you i said i didnt support isreal i was just arguing over the fact that you supported isreal. but hey people like you love putting word in people mouth yh
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    So why do you keep bringing up this thing about them being white? Especially given so many Israelis are not?

    Because you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of being white. Israelis enjoy the support of western superpowers and a great deal of influence in their policy making. They are not discriminated against, nor experience any form of oppression anywhere. Just because they are not of a white skin colour in the same way that someone of english heritage is, does not mean they don't enjoy the same privileges, and thus can be classified as being white. I keep bringing it up because I see so many white people thinking they can save palestine by using all their knowledge that they have accrued simply by being white. It was a passing comment.

    Erm... well there was this big thing called the Holocaust, where 6 million Jews were killed merely because of their Jewish identity. Does that count? No, you're right; Jews have had it really easy throughout history

    I've been careful not to mention historically oppressed, because of the atrocities committed in the Holocaust. I was talking about the present day, and about current affairs.

    Nope. I'm just pointing out how clueless you are when you are calling Israel a "white" country (as if that even matters anyway)

    When I say Israel is a white country, as I explained above, I mean it enjoys privilege. This you cannot deny, given the overwhelming support Israel receives from America. And of course it matters, White privilege IS a thing, right? Right?!

    The report seems to claim that detaining people for immigration offences is torture. This is ludicrous on its face; there is no country in the world that does not use immigration detention in one form or another

    ****ing hell, do you even read the news?! Do you know what Australia does to its 'boat people'?!

    Are you aware you've just dismissed a UN report by someone WHO WAS TORTURED HIMSELF saying they are TORTURING KIDS as being ludicrous? Really?

    That includes pretty much all of Europe and this country. Then again, it wouldn't be as satisfying to be criticising Europe, would it? You're just indulging in the typical leftist hatred of successful new world countries like Australia and the United States, something that is common amongst arrogant middle-class leftists in this country most of whom have never even travelled to the US or Australia

    I've been to Australia twice. Half of my family lives there. Also, when I say West, I mean countries in Europe too. When I say white saviour complex, I mean every western country. It seems like typical liberal/conservative mantra to suggest that we don't criticise the darling new world countries that got where they are by massacring a load of native people, colonising and then making sure that the natives don't ever get any rights or retribution whatsoever.

    Have you?
    You're doing a great job of making yourself look really compassionate and caring here.
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    (Original post by the north)
    i was just arguing over the fact that you supported isreal. but hey people like you love putting word in people mouth yh
    Justifying Hamas' tactic of telling its civilians to ignore IDF warnings ahead of air strikes sounds a lot like an apology for terrorism to me.

    As to your writing and the dyslexia, if you are indeed dyslexic then I apologise.
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    [/b]

    I think you are confused about what the word indiscriminate means. An Israeli jet, acting on intelligence that a Hamas terrorist is at a certain location, and dropping a guided smart bomb of the lowest yield on it, is not indiscriminate. And that kind of operation is what Operation Protective Edge mainly consisted of.

    As to the BBC link, that had nothing about indiscriminate air strikes. As to ground operations, they are inherently messy. That's what happens when you send an army into a city centre in an urban battle; civilians get killed because soldiers will always err on the side of caution, particularly in an urban setting where they are constantly fighting off ambushes, snipers, suicide bombers, IEDs etc

    It makes me sick that Hamas continued to fire rockets knowing that Israel would be forced to send their troops in. The fact you completely ignore that induced Israel to send in its troops in the first place, your implicit suggestion that somehow all these Israeli operations are happening in a vacuum, suggests the moral centres of your brain are undeveloped in the extreme.
    no but ordering your soliders to kill indiscriminatly is not morally wrong? wtf
    how much times do i have to tell you im not arguing for hamas , im arguing against isreal .
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    (Original post by Guills on wheels)
    When I say Israel is a white country, as I explained above, I mean it enjoys privilege
    :lol: So white isn't a skin colour, it's a matrix of privilege?

    I've been to Australia twice.


    Really? Where?
 
 
 
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