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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Justifying Hamas' tactic of telling its civilians to ignore IDF warnings ahead of air strikes sounds a lot like an apology for terrorism to me.

    As to your writing and the dyslexia, if you are indeed dyslexic then I apologise.
    i wasnt justifying i was pointing out that isreal excuse of human shields is flawed were it became apology i dont know
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    (Original post by the north)
    no but ordering your soliders to kill indiscriminatly is not morally wrong? wtf.
    There is a fundamental difference between some soldiers in particular units committing war crimes, and a general policy of indiscriminate shooting.

    Even the actual report itself (I clicked into it and read it) is extremely variable in what these soldiers were ordered to do; some say they were told to shoot if they felt threatened / if someone seemed about to attack etc, some say they were involved indiscriminate fire.

    But no-one has offered any evidence that this was an order that came from the top, nor will they be able to offer any such evidence because Israel doesn't do that and it has no reason to do that.

    It is completely understandable that a terrified 19 year old IDF infantry, going into a Hamas stronghold like Shujaiya, where the air force has been dropping leaflets for days telling the civilians to leave and that a major assault is coming, knowing that Shujaiya is a nest of Hamas bunker complexes, snipers, suicide bombers, mines and IEDs, I can totally understand why young soldiers would shoot almost anything that moved given almost all the civilians would have left at that point.

    I don't particularly like it; in fact, I hate the fact that is what warfare is like. But it is; war is cruelty. And as soon as it was the case that the IDF was going to mount a ground operation into Gaza, this became inevitable. I do not blame the 19 year old soldier, scared out of his mind. I blame the Hamas terrorists who kept firing rockets from that location knowing it would precipitate an IDF ground invasion.

    The fact you appear to attach no blame whatsoever to Hamas, and you act as though all of these Israeli operations are happening in a vacuum, in their actions is morally dubious.

    Anyway, that's all for tonight
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    (Original post by the north)
    i wasnt justifying i was pointing out that isreal excuse of human shields is flawed were it became apology i dont know
    Do you accept that Hamas fires rockets at Israel from civilian areas in Gaza?
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    So Israel targeted buildings...? I'm not sure if I am supposed to be outraged. Surely what is important is what is inside those buildings?

    Yeah - civilians.

    In historical military terms, it is quite precise. The fact about 1500 civilians were killed from around 5,000 bombs dropped, we are talking about 250lb bombs, suggests a high level of precision. I'm not sure why I'm giving you quantitative facts, you lack the understanding and knowledge of military technology and international law to judge such things. Perhaps it's better to leave to you the screechy, hysterical, slogany type stuff.

    Sorry, not my thing to know exact specifications of things designed to kill people. Didn't know it was necessary.

    I'm not sure if you're aware of how big 1500 is, but it's 1500 illegal deaths, put it that way. 1500. illegal. deaths. in. one. year.

    Only 5 Israeli civilians were killed because Israel built bunkers for its citizens to take shelter in, and they built a missile system called Iron Dome to protect their civilians.

    Remind me of how much that Iron Dome cost and how much America pays to Israel every year?

    Hamas built bunkers to store its rockets in, and placed its rockets in civilian houses and areas.

    Proof? Every story I've heard about people diving into safe rooms in their houses doesn't mention how their houses were full of weapons...

    So basically, Israel uses missiles to protect its citizens sheltering in bunkers, Hamas uses civilians to protect its missiles and soldiers/leadership sheltering in bunkers.

    And the fact that Israel has bombed schools and housing areas is inconsequential?

    That tells you everything about their relative value of life. Israel values human life (as was admitted on the thread earlier, Hamas knows human shields are effective in stopping air strikes). Hamas does not value human life, and they revel in dead Palestinian children.

    Yeah, **** me, they really valued those civilians, didn't they?

    As to the Israeli soldiers killed, Israel sent its soldiers into Gaza to root out some of the command centres and rocket storage bunkers. That is why some of their soldiers were killed. That was entirely incidental to Hamas' overall campaign of war crimes, firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately at Israeli civilians
    So firing rockets that kill 5 civilians in the same year is described as "indiscriminate" yet it's precision when 1500 were killed? Logic.

    Oh! the iron dome that receives 176 million dollars every year? To the country with a GDP nearly 26 times greater than Palestine?
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    There is a fundamental difference between some soldiers in particular units committing war crimes, and a general policy of indiscriminate shooting.

    Even the actual report itself (I clicked into it and read it) is extremely variable in what these soldiers were ordered to do; some say they were told to shoot if they felt threatened / if someone seemed about to attack etc, some say they were involved indiscriminate fire.

    But no-one has offered any evidence that this was an order that came from the top, nor will they be able to offer any such evidence because Israel doesn't do that and it has no reason to do that.

    It is completely understandable that a terrified 19 year old IDF infantry, going into a Hamas stronghold like Shujaiya, where the air force has been dropping leaflets for days telling the civilians to leave and that a major assault is coming, knowing that Shujaiya is a nest of Hamas bunker complexes, snipers, suicide bombers, mines and IEDs, I can totally understand why young soldiers would shoot almost anything that moved given almost all the civilians would have left at that point.

    I don't particularly like it; in fact, I hate the fact that is what warfare is like. But it is; war is cruelty. And as soon as it was the case that the IDF was going to mount a ground operation into Gaza, this became inevitable. I do not blame the 19 year old soldier, scared out of his mind. I blame the Hamas terrorists who kept firing rockets from that location knowing it would precipitate an IDF ground invasion.

    The fact you appear to attach no blame whatsoever to Hamas in their actions is morally dubious.

    Anyway, that's all for tonight
    mate im just gonna say this for 100th time ,i dont support hamas ,the reason why i never attached blame on them is cuz our argument/debate whatever is about isreals actions if there was a thread about hamas then its a diffrent story . but i can say the same thing. the fact that your so proactivly suporting isreal is morally dubious in my books

    any ways night
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    :lol: So white isn't a skin colour, it's a matrix of privilege?



    Really? Where?
    White? Privilege? No connection?

    Flew to Sydney, went to Adelaide and Byron Bay both times. Going again this Christmas to Byron Bay and a town called Bermagui somewhere on the east coast a couple of hundred miles south of sydney.

    Don't ****ing doubt me, you knob.
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Do you accept that Hamas fires rockets at Israel from civilian areas in Gaza?
    did u even read the article that i posted the link for?

    do you accept that isreal does airstrikes on civilians homes?
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    (Original post by Guills on wheels)
    Sorry, not my thing to know exact specifications of things designed to kill people. Didn't know it was necessary.


    If you are going to make any serious claim to assessing the degree to which certain military operations are legal or illegal under the laws of armed conflict and international law (given it involves judgments as to proportionality, the likelihood of civilian deaths, the justifiability of using certain munitions in particular situations), then you do need to understand that kind of thing.

    Having admitted that you are clueless on that subject, and having no apparent understanding of expertise in the law, you have effectively conceded that you lack the capacity to assess legality and permissibility in this subject

    1500 illegal deaths
    Given we've already established you lack the capacity, the knowledge or the training, to understand or assess the legality or permissibility of these operations under the law of armed conflict, you would presumably accept you don't have a clue whether they are "iillegal deaths" (the actual term is unlawful killing).

    In which case your assertions would merely be an expression of prejudice and partisan opinon?
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    (Original post by the north)
    did u even read the article that i posted the link for?

    do you accept that isreal does airstrikes on civilians homes?
    So you're not going to answer the question about whether you accept that Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas?
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    (Original post by Guills on wheels)
    White? Privilege? No connection?
    The connection is tenuous, to say the least, if they're not actually white.

    Don't ****ing doubt me, you knob.
    Oh dear, baby's throwing his toys out of the pram. Somebody call the whaaaaambulance
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    (Original post by the north)
    i dont support hamas ,the reason why i never attached blame on them
    You say you don't support Hamas but you concede you don't attach any blame to their actions

    is cuz our argument/debate whatever is about isreals actions if there was a thread about hamas then its a diffrent story
    I'm sorry mate but I think you are confused. This thread was originally about anti-semitism amongst claimed Palestine advocates on campus.

    And then we discussed the conflict in 2014, which includes the actions of both sides. Your claim that this is only a discussion about Israel's actions is just that; your claim.

    And you're never really going to be taken seriously if you try such transparently pusillanimous debating "tactics"; avoiding discussion of the parts of the subject that make you uncomfortable or which are bad for your "side" is pretty unbecoming
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    Just saying, pro-Palestine doesnt equate to anti semitism! Pro palestinian means that believing that the Palestinians have a right to live in peace as does everyonE.
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    [/i]

    If you are going to make any serious claim to assessing the degree to which certain military operations are legal or illegal under the laws of armed conflict and international law (given it involves judgments as to proportionality, the likelihood of civilian deaths, the justifiability of using certain munitions in particular situations), then you do need to understand that kind of thing.

    Having admitted that you are clueless on that subject, and having no apparent understanding of expertise in the law, you have effectively conceded that you lack the capacity to assess legality and permissibility in this subject

    [i]

    Given we've already established you lack the capacity, the knowledge or the training, to understand or assess the legality or permissibility of these operations under the law of armed conflict, you would presumably accept you don't have a clue whether they are "iillegal deaths" (the actual term is unlawful killing).

    In which case your assertions would merely be an expression of prejudice and partisan opinon?
    not entirely sure how the fact I don't know the typical payload of a ****ing missile means you can justify all this, but anyway.

    I doubt you've read the Qu'ran cover to cover; does that mean you can't comment on Hamas' methods? No.

    Okay, unlawful killing then, if you want to be stuck up and pretentious.

    Again, please explain how killing 1500 civilians couldn't possibly be unlawful?

    And your opinion is objective then?


    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    The connection is tenuous, to say the least, if they're not actually white.

    This is the exact reason why people like you shouldn't ****ing be allowed to breath. I'm sorry, I don't like resorting to personal attacks but it's just thick.

    America had a direct say in whether that ****ing agreement passed through the UN in the first place. Please tell me why they don't experience privilege. You've provided no argument so far.

    Oh dear, baby's throwing his toys out of the pram. Somebody call the whaaaaambulance
    Oh dear, someone's been proved wrong and they don't know how to respond? Classic.
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    So you're not going to answer the question about whether you accept that Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas?
    my answer is the answer in the artcile under the heading civilian areas

    if youre to lazy it acknowledges hamas actions in civlians areas but not to the extent that isreal and its supporters claim
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    You say you don't support Hamas but you concede you don't attach any blame to their actions



    I'm sorry mate but I think you are confused. This thread was originally about anti-semitism amongst claimed Palestine advocates on campus.

    And then we discussed the conflict in 2014, which includes the actions of both sides. Your claim that this is only a discussion about Israel's actions is just that; your claim.

    And you're never really going to be taken seriously if you try such transparently pusillanimous debating "tactics"; avoiding discussion of the parts of the subject that make you uncomfortable or which are bad for your "side" is pretty unbecoming
    i never said this thread i was said we started arguing about isreals actions
    if you want to discuss hamas atrocties am more than happy but i get the idea that were gonna agree on many things about hamas while we disagree alot about isreal
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    (Original post by Jacky Hearts)
    That wasn't my argument. I don't support either states as both are destructive and support killing civilians. The only solution I would morally advocate is a popular uprising against both states.

    I don't agree. Isreal's government has proved to be extremely heavy handed.
    To be fair on Israel, it has faced multiple threats to its survival and as is oft-repeated, because it's true, if it dropped its weapons it would be annihilated. Ever since the 2nd intifada, even relatively non-hawkish, leftish Israelis have admitted that the Palestinians don't really want a two-state solution. Now assuming your allegations about Israel intentionally killing civilians are true, nothing would justify that. It would be a war crime. But going back to the topic before, Britain did the same in WW2 (in fact, immeasurably worse, bombing entire cities to the ground).
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    They are in a hell of a fix. Many in Netanyahu's government were calling on him to go in and topple Hamas once and for all, and the IDF advised him that they were capable of doing so if ordered ("Go in and pull them out by their ears" was the phrase).

    What they were worried about was what would come after if they toppled Hamas. In recent months, there have been backchannel communications between Hamas and Israel about the worrying growth of ISIS in Gaza.

    If only the Palestinians had stood behind Fatah in Gaza, at this point Gaza would probably be thriving and I actually think we probably would have had a final settlement by now if we hadn't had the three Gaza conflicts that came from Hamas provoking Israel
    But Fatah are hardly democrats either - they used to be (still are?) terrorists!
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Regarding that, don't you think it is a relevant consideration that the only reason Israel is now being bombarded by Hamas rockets is because they did the right thing in 2005 and completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip, pulled all the soldiers out, forcibly evicted the Israeli settlers at great political cost, to hand it over entirely to the Palestinians as a first step / peace gesture with a view to moving on to a West Bank disengagement next.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...ment_from_Gaza

    And then their reward for pulling out of Gaza is to see it fall to Hamas, who immediately start bombarding Israel with rockets. Do you not think that is a relevant consideration here? Do you not have any sympathy for the extraordinary difficulty Israeli policy-makers are in when they are under rocket bombardment; they can either do nothing, in which case it just gets worse, or they can retaliate and unfortunately civilians will be killed. What do you propose they do?
    Absolutely 100%, in the comment I made I am literally just saying that there are a group of innocent people, whose lives are being destroyed by a) people who govern them, and b) people who they have never done anything to.

    The situation the Israelis in is completely irrelevant to the statement, there are a group of people who are pawns in a game that is destroying their lives, and for nothing.

    I'm talking about the people who are your everyday civilians... Not anything to do with any of the military operations.
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Actually that's not really true, is it? A fundamental distinction here is that Israel actually has the power to wipe the Gaza Strip off the map, or to go in and topple Hamas. They can, but they don't, nor would they want to.

    By contrast, Hamas does not have the power to wipe Israel off the map but you know they would if they could
    Hamas would if they could

    Israel would if they could get away with it.....
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    (Original post by Ashnard)
    Stop feigning neutrality. I have picked you up before about this. It is clear from your previous comment that you are anything but objective on this issue:
    I am neutral. That quote is from what my perspective would be were I a Palestinian.

    The same way that if I was an Israeli I would want as many of those troublesome people that mean I live my life in fear obliterated, and I wouldn't care about the cost to the population in Gaza.

    Furthermore, a neutral person looking in, can form an opinion. My point is that I am not predisposed by faith, colour or creed to either side.
 
 
 
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