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    (Original post by Supermassive_muse_fan)
    Hi, could anyone please get me this paper if they have access: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11719087 would greatly appreciate it
    Do you want to PM me an address to send it to?
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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    Broadly speaking, how interested in teaching are doctors in the hospitals you guys do clinical years at?
    HOs and SHOs love to teach, and are really good at it too! They're really nice and happily give up their coffee breaks to go over stuff with you.

    Registrars - very busy so less inclined to teach. But most of them are at two extremes - some that I've met don't want to teach at all, and others love it. I remember my GI block, my own consultant that I was attached to was away for 3 of the 6 weeks, and he had two part time registrars (one that I didn't even meet) so I went off and asked a hepatology registrar if I could stick with him and he was more than happy to. He'd ask me questions in front of the patient and ask me to interpret results, give differentials, do examinations, write up patient notes etc. He was quite frankly - awesome.

    Consultants - again, at two extremes. But I'd say most like to teach.
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    (Original post by Fission_Mailed)
    Do you want to PM me an address to send it to?
    Wow that was quick! Thanks
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    (Original post by Supermassive_muse_fan)
    Wow that was quick! Thanks
    Done.
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    wow paeds 9-5 lectures just went over my head big time! im gonna go hide a re-learn medicine....
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    Does anyone know if on NCBI bookshelf, if you can access the full book? Or is it just certain pages/chapters?
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    So, phone broken, so I went back to the general junk draw to grab a spare, until I remembered that the reason they were in there was because that even older phone was also not working..fail. Might go back to ye age olde 3310!

    Interesting tidbit though, was told the other day that 95% if medical students go on to be doctors (strictly speaking qualify, MBBS, whether they practice is different) so this means re access, as long as we can get kids from more difficult backgrounds into medical school - theres a very very good chance they'll be doctors. That can be life changing - not just for them but obviously for their kids, and the whole family. Never thought of it that way before...
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    So, phone broken, so I went back to the general junk draw to grab a spare, until I remembered that the reason they were in there was because that even older phone was also not working..fail. Might go back to ye age olde 3310!

    Interesting tidbit though, was told the other day that 95% if medical students go on to be doctors (strictly speaking qualify, MBBS, whether they practice is different) so this means re access, as long as we can get kids from more difficult backgrounds into medical school - theres a very very good chance they'll be doctors. That can be life changing - not just for them but obviously for their kids, and the whole family. Never thought of it that way before...
    95% from entry? Or a specific year.

    I suspect more of those from difficult backrounds fail than others sadly (I know from experience those who sail closest to the wind are the ones with less than stable home lives)

    But then of course there is the whole debate about whether university should be about social engineering or not and whether tbh we should be starting earlier in their life.
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    So, phone broken, so I went back to the general junk draw to grab a spare, until I remembered that the reason they were in there was because that even older phone was also not working..fail. Might go back to ye age olde 3310!

    Interesting tidbit though, was told the other day that 95% if medical students go on to be doctors (strictly speaking qualify, MBBS, whether they practice is different) so this means re access, as long as we can get kids from more difficult backgrounds into medical school - theres a very very good chance they'll be doctors. That can be life changing - not just for them but obviously for their kids, and the whole family. Never thought of it that way before...
    Indeed, never thought of it quite like that. I suppose you mean in comparison to most degrees where career path is uncertain and first jobs are not (almost) guaranteed... 95% seems a little high though given that I thought drop-out rate was reasonably high (at least in first year), though I guess most exam failures are re-sat (either the exam or an entire year) rather than resulting in the student leaving.

    There was an interesting talk at the RSM recently on feminisation of medicine which pointed out that the only demographic that's underrepresented at medical school (in comparison to proportion of general UK population) is white males. Strange how much can change in a few decades.
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    (Original post by Becca-Sarah)
    Indeed, never thought of it quite like that. I suppose you mean in comparison to most degrees where career path is uncertain and first jobs are not (almost) guaranteed... 95% seems a little high though given that I thought drop-out rate was reasonably high (at least in first year), though I guess most exam failures are re-sat (either the exam or an entire year) rather than resulting in the student leaving.

    There was an interesting talk at the RSM recently on feminisation of medicine which pointed out that the only demographic that's underrepresented at medical school (in comparison to proportion of general UK population) is white males. Strange how much can change in a few decades.
    Medicine. The only professions where I would be an ethic minority. :awesome:
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    (Original post by crazylemon)
    Medicine. The only professions where I would be an ethic minority. :awesome:
    I've got a debate coming up. Does the state have an ethical obligation to promote a healthy lifestyle or something like that. I'm against, but I can easily make a good argument for. I thought you'd be interested.
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    (Original post by SMed)
    I've got a debate coming up. Does the state have an ethical obligation to promote a healthy lifestyle or something like that. I'm against, but I can easily make a good argument for. I thought you'd be interested.
    Ethical? no. But while we have an NHS it has a fiscal reason to :p:
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    (Original post by SMed)
    I've got a debate coming up. Does the state have an ethical obligation to promote a healthy lifestyle or something like that. I'm against, but I can easily make a good argument for. I thought you'd be interested.
    What's your argument for it, out of interest? All I can come up with is the "a society is measured by the way it treats it's weakest members" quote, but I can't actually make it fit ethical obligation to promote health, only a tenuous link to a sort of obligation to treat disease if it wants to be seen as a decent society (and the parallels between society and state).
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    (Original post by crazylemon)
    95% from entry? Or a specific year.

    I suspect more of those from difficult backrounds fail than others sadly (I know from experience those who sail closest to the wind are the ones with less than stable home lives)

    But then of course there is the whole debate about whether university should be about social engineering or not and whether tbh we should be starting earlier in their life.

    I haven't seen numbers, but thats the gist of a conversation, the point is that once you get into medical school - unless you do something ridiculous, you sail along and get through.

    Personally, I'm not sure re your question - I think university should educate the brightest in what they want to do, regardless of means - so selection purely on the basis of potential. But it is by definition a very powerful vehical of social mobility - because careers depend on access to university, and without that potential is smuffed out. All together, I think universities should continue to select the brightest students, what needs to happen is a massive booast needs to be given at the school stage so that people are given the confidence to apply. It is not the job of a university to be a remedial class for the failures of the school system. The problem is you need to look at the motivations of universities in selection - they want good doctors, yes, but they also want people who are able to pass the course. If you have been well taught with good grades, you look like you could do that. It is very difficult to differentiate well taught people who have peaked in their ability, and kids who have had poor teaching, for which mediocre grades on paper still represents a rising sun of potential. I would do what Kings does in its EDMP - with one exception - across the board, take a far greater proportion of 'riskier students' and challenge them to sink or swim in the first year, with support. Give them a scholarship to free fees and they can take a student loan for the rest. Regardless of previous performance, if you can take the first year, then we will keep you on - again on a scholarship. At the end of the day, A levels mean very little, and do not necessarily tell you if you cope on a medical degree, various studies show different correlates - but then if you have a student failing in front of you, it dosn't particularly matter if the data says they should do well. If all medical schools did this, I suspect that a proportion of students would sink, but more would swim, given the chance. This is basically what some medical schools in Europe do.
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    I haven't seen numbers, but thats the gist of a conversation, the point is that once you get into medical school - unless you do something ridiculous, you sail along and get through.

    Personally, I'm not sure re your question - I think university should educate the brightest in what they want to do, regardless of means - so selection purely on the basis of potential. But it is by definition a very powerful vehical of social mobility - because careers depend on access to university, and without that potential is smuffed out. All together, I think universities should continue to select the brightest students, what needs to happen is a massive booast needs to be given at the school stage so that people are given the confidence to apply. It is not the job of a university to be a remedial class for the failures of the school system. The problem is you need to look at the motivations of universities in selection - they want good doctors, yes, but they also want people who are able to pass the course. If you have been well taught with good grades, you look like you could do that. It is very difficult to differentiate well taught people who have peaked in their ability, and kids who have had poor teaching, for which mediocre grades on paper still represents a rising sun of potential. I would do what Kings does in its EDMP - with one exception - across the board, take a far greater proportion of 'riskier students' and challenge them to sink or swim in the first year, with support. Give them a scholarship to free fees and they can take a student loan for the rest. Regardless of previous performance, if you can take the first year, then we will keep you on - again on a scholarship. At the end of the day, A levels mean very little, and do not necessarily tell you if you cope on a medical degree, various studies show different correlates - but then if you have a student failing in front of you, it dosn't particularly matter if the data says they should do well. If all medical schools did this, I suspect that a proportion of students would sink, but more would swim, given the chance. This is basically what some medical schools in Europe do.
    I agree with what you say, with the exception of the scholarships and waived fees.


    But it is a more expensive way to do it, you get wastage from the first year.
    I approve of what the access schemes do.

    Anyone who can get Bs (assuming this isn't with 5million hours of tuition etc.) can pass medicine if they do the work.
    I would prefer they spent less looking at grades but other atributes still favours those of us with the connections and a public school education, and the grammars
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    (Original post by crazylemon)
    I agree with what you say, with the exception of the scholarships and waived fees.


    But it is a more expensive way to do it, you get wastage from the first year.
    I approve of what the access schemes do.

    Anyone who can get Bs (assuming this isn't with 5million hours of tuition etc.) can pass medicine if they do the work.
    I would prefer they spent less looking at grades but other atributes still favours those of us with the connections and a public school education, and the grammars
    Why?
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    Why?
    I've noticed that the people in my year who experienced good schooling are more confident in themselves, more well-read, and can make themselves seem generally more competent.

    That counts.

    (May not be a general theme, it's just my perspective.)
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    Why?
    Because I don't see why they are needed. What is needed is an explanation of how student finance works. When I did some teaching in a academy the lack f understanding was shocking wrt student finance. It is fine to have them done through that.

    As for kinkerz you are totally right. I can spot the public school boys a mile off. Although some of them are arrogant *****.
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    I haven't been up this early in about two weeks. >.<

    I've realised I really should get a haircut. My hair is almost down to my shoulders now, patients are going to think I'm mental/female.
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    The problems preventing people from lower-income backgrounds getting into medicine are hugely complex - not something in my opinion that you could isolate to basic factors in the medical admissions process. It's hard to know what we could do to help.
 
 
 
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