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    (Original post by crazylemon)
    True, it is difficult though. How would you fund your proposed change? The money has to come from somewhere and a graduate tax is would be totally against (If they tried to implement it and I had to pay it I would try and leave)
    Easy

    AS of 2008, there are ~8000 medical places in the UK - Wikipedia.

    We take 2000 of those places and reserve them for disadvantaged kids, we give a £20,000 tax free, non repayable bursary for the whole course - 6 years

    £20,000 for 2000 students is £40Million

    Over 6 years - £240M


    When the Banker's tax was first put on, it netted £3.5Bn, the next round of fuel tax increases 2p? is projected to raise 1.5Bn. Even if the Banker's tax drops off the edge of a cliff, it can scrape together a couple of hundred million, or peanuts compared to the ridiculous amount spent for the NHS computer system. For such a measly amount (less than the budget overruns on some government projects) you can change the lives of 2000 families.


    Sounds good yes? It only depends on the government wanting to do it. Which kids you give the money to is a different issue - and in itself a minefield. but it isn't as expensive as you might think. If we are going to change the cycle for good, we need to be bold and completly shatter the middle class stranglehold. Now I'm saying that as someone who had a fantastic (private, yes) education - but the thing is, these kids that don't get a chance, that is a criminal waste of potential, and the whole country looses out from their lost productivity - who knows what brilliant things could come from any one of these 2000 kids? Say if you had a £1Bn, you could save that money and spend it like that in 3 blocks of 6 years - you could lift generations of students out of the mire from just a round of fuel levies. You won't see the benefits necessarily for 20,30 or 40 years, but there will be change, and it will be profound.

    2000 students - just think of that.
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    Easy

    AS of 2008, there are ~8000 medical places in the UK - Wikipedia.

    We take 2000 of those places and reserve them for disadvantaged kids, we give a £20,000 tax free, non repayable bursary for the whole course - 6 years

    £20,000 for 2000 students is £40Million

    Over 6 years - £240M


    When the Banker's tax was first put on, it netted £3.5Bn, the next round of fuel tax increases 2p? is projected to raise 1.5Bn. Even if the Banker's tax drops off the edge of a cliff, it can scrape together a couple of hundred million, or peanuts compared to the ridiculous amount spent for the NHS computer system. For such a measly amount (less than the budget overruns on some government projects) you can change the lives of 2000 families.


    Sounds good yes? It only depends on the government wanting to do it. Which kids you give the money to is a different issue - and in itself a minefield. but it isn't as expensive as you might think. If we are going to change the cycle for good, we need to be bold and completly shatter the middle class stranglehold. Now I'm saying that as someone who had a fantastic (private, yes) education - but the thing is, these kids that don't get a chance, that is a criminal waste of potential, and the whole country looses out from their lost productivity - who knows what brilliant things could come from any one of these 2000 kids? Say if you had a £1Bn, you could save that money and spend it like that in 3 blocks of 6 years - you could lift generations of students out of the mire from just a round of fuel levies. You won't see the benefits necessarily for 20,30 or 40 years, but there will be change, and it will be profound.

    2000 students - just think of that.
    But then you have to cut something else, the country is running at an unsustainable level of deficit. You can't look in isolation at this sort of thing. Plus I am not sure why medicine should be a special case other that the job security.

    I come from a priveldged background myself so can't really talk and I suspect I probably worsen the issue. I am all for more acess schemes and going by the fact they are hugely oversubscribed (so there is demand) I would say that just widening them (and shrinking. Normal places) would be the way to go for now.

    I think trying to get the US culture of pays icing back to you alma mater is the way to go to fund additional scholarships (not that our uni is doing well seeig as it came 164 out of 167 in feedback in the NSs I believe lol)
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    New phone! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! :awesome: I am excited by shiny things.
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    (Original post by crazylemon)
    But then you have to cut something else, the country is running at an unsustainable level of deficit. You can't look in isolation at this sort of thing. Plus I am not sure why medicine should be a special case other that the job security.

    I come from a priveldged background myself so can't really talk and I suspect I probably worsen the issue. I am all for more acess schemes and going by the fact they are hugely oversubscribed (so there is demand) I would say that just widening them (and shrinking. Normal places) would be the way to go for now.

    I think trying to get the US culture of pays icing back to you alma mater is the way to go to fund additional scholarships (not that our uni is doing well seeig as it came 164 out of 167 in feedback in the NSs I believe lol)
    No, because both the banking tax and the fuel duty is new money...
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    I think because I managed with basically zilch help through school - I have a rather dim view on these things, as I think with the way things are if you're clever enough you can manage it. There's already a very reasonable income-assessed loan (up to 5k in london) and bursary given out (2.5k from student finance, which is often topped up by unis by another 2.5k), and then fees can be paid back as normal like anyone else - I don't see the problem.

    I went to a meh comprehensive and managed so why can't anyone else... I'm sure you have some very valid points Sarky so if you want to give us your 2ps worth...
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    I managed with no help from my parents as well but I feel a big thing was I knew they were there/could support me to a certain extent IF the **** hit the fan. That makes a huge difference. I was never going to have to drop out because I couldn't fine rent etc.

    Also, taking on massive debt when you don't even know if you would pass the course is a big ask.
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    (Original post by *tink*)
    I managed with no help from my parents as well but I feel a big thing was I knew they were there/could support me to a certain extent IF the **** hit the fan. That makes a huge difference. I was never going to have to drop out because I couldn't fine rent etc.

    Also, taking on massive debt when you don't even know if you would pass the course is a big ask.
    Well not really - we all go in expecting to pass and most of us do.

    And it's win-win - if you really don't pass you won't have to repay it anyway until you're earning a certain amount, and if you do you're earning so you can pay it.
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    Genuinely, what do you think the issues are?
    I don't really have an answer for that, but I do recognise the nuances of the issue. It's everything that leads up to an individual choosing another course over medicine, not getting the grades, not being prepared for work experience and interviews and everything else that might support an application. Behind each of those elements are a huge range of factors, many of which will be greatly affected by background and upbringing.

    But like I said, I don't really know, especially without researching it more.
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    Hi, does anyone know any good immunology websites? Not so much the infection and types of pathogens etc - just the physiology of the immune system?
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    (Original post by crazylemon)
    But what you need is to give the details of how it is paid back and make that clear.
    Yes the total debt might be 100k but explain that once you graduate you will only be paying £x a month they seem to get it (or did when I explained it...) plus that it comes out as a tax and so you never ever have to worry about not being able to afford to pay it back that you don't
    Maybe thinking that education on how it works is all that is needed (wrt this as a barrier) is naive but I have seen it work.
    I do find it bizzare that the government rejected the idea of a graduate tax before effectively implementing one in all but name. Had they implemented an explicitly named graduate tax it would have avoided a lot of the student unrest and accusations of breaking promises - the lib dems could even claim they'd abolished up-front student fees.
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    (Original post by Captain Crash)
    I do find it bizzare that the government rejected the idea of a graduate tax before effectively implementing one in all but name. Had they implemented an explicitly named graduate tax it would have avoided a lot of the student unrest and accusations of breaking promises - the lib dems could even claim they'd abolished up-front student fees.
    A tax would be applied uniformly to all grads though, surely? This at least takes into account how much you borrowed.
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    (Original post by Captain Crash)
    I do find it bizzare that the government rejected the idea of a graduate tax before effectively implementing one in all but name. Had they implemented an explicitly named graduate tax it would have avoided a lot of the student unrest and accusations of breaking promises - the lib dems could even claim they'd abolished up-front student fees.
    This punishes the wealthy far less than a tax. Not that I am impressed with the new system either.
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    (Original post by Philosoraptor)
    I think because I managed with basically zilch help through school - I have a rather dim view on these things, as I think with the way things are if you're clever enough you can manage it. There's already a very reasonable income-assessed loan (up to 5k in london) and bursary given out (2.5k from student finance, which is often topped up by unis by another 2.5k), and then fees can be paid back as normal like anyone else - I don't see the problem.

    I went to a meh comprehensive and managed so why can't anyone else... I'm sure you have some very valid points Sarky so if you want to give us your 2ps worth...
    Yeah, I'm with you man.

    I went to a meh comp and I seem to be doing fine. I'm of the opinion of that anybody can do it. With the amount of burseries etc available at the moment I really don't think anything else is necessary.

    If anything the way the loan is done pisses me off. Why should you only have to pay back 70% (or whatever %) of your loan and me 100% despite the fact that we are both leaving with the same degree?

    Give them access to more 0% interest loans, sure. Not having to pay half of it back despite the fact it's 0% interest and you pay back tiny amounts per month? Wtf? If anybody was deterred off medicine by the amount of 'debt', I put debt in inverted commas because it's essentially the nicest 'debt' you'll ever have, they deserve a slap in the face.
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    (Original post by Becca-Sarah)
    A tax would be applied uniformly to all grads though, surely? This at least takes into account how much you borrowed.

    (Original post by crazylemon)
    This punishes the wealthy far less than a tax. Not that I am impressed with the new system either.
    These points may be true for the general graduate tax, but the current is essentially a graduate tax. If they slapped a name of a tax on it, I imagine it would have gone down a lot better.
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    (Original post by RollerBall)
    Yeah, I'm with you man.

    I went to a meh comp and I seem to be doing fine. I'm of the opinion of that anybody can do it. With the amount of burseries etc available at the moment I really don't think anything else is necessary.

    If anything the way the loan is done pisses me off. Why should you only have to pay back 70% (or whatever %) of your loan and me 100% despite the fact that we are both leaving with the same degree?

    Give them access to more 0% interest loans, sure. Not having to pay half of it back despite the fact it's 0% interest and you pay back tiny amounts per month? Wtf? If anybody was deterred off medicine by the amount of 'debt', I put debt in inverted commas because it's essentially the nicest 'debt' you'll ever have, they deserve a slap in the face.
    I do think though that everyone should be allowed in principle to apply for the same amount of maximum loans - so sod the london topup, and the parental assessed topup, every student should be able to apply for the same amount regardless of parental income - the whole independence thing has to go all the way. Then, if parents choose to help, that's their choice. You can then have extra bursaries available - but I think alot of people would benefit from this.
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    (Original post by Captain Crash)
    I do find it bizzare that the government rejected the idea of a graduate tax before effectively implementing one in all but name. Had they implemented an explicitly named graduate tax it would have avoided a lot of the student unrest and accusations of breaking promises - the lib dems could even claim they'd abolished up-front student fees.
    The fear with the graduate tax is that it would just disappear into the wide blue yonder, whereas at least now, all monies are recycled through the SLC. Then again the government is reportedly considering selling off the loanbook...If you do not earn over 21K after your degree, it has to be said, - what additional skills has that degree bought you? And indeed - potentially if you are doing a job not necessitating a degree - then has the taxpayer investment been wasted?
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    The fear with the graduate tax is that it would just disappear into the wide blue yonder, whereas at least now, all monies are recycled through the SLC. Then again the government is reportedly considering selling off the loanbook...If you do not earn over 21K after your degree, it has to be said, - what additional skills has that degree bought you? And indeed - potentially if you are doing a job not necessitating a degree - then has the taxpayer investment been wasted?
    Regarding your last point - kind of, but that's Labours fault for pushing far too many people into unnecessary degrees and devaluing the status of a graduate. I think it's great that apprenticeships and other alternatives to uni are being pushed again, and hopefully the fee change will make more people consider whether university is actually necessary for what they want to do right now. I agree that (in the long term, ignoring the immediate jobs most grads are forced to do to pay the rent) if you aren't earning over £21k then your degree probably wasn't worth taking, career wise. But a lot of people want the experience, or to simply prove to themselves that they could do it - a friend of mine has a history degree and is now doing an NVQ to be a teaching assistant, but that doesn't mean her degree is worthless because she has more confidence in her own ability and intelligence now, that she wouldn't have had if she'd gone straight to NVQ after school.
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    Will I ever look down a microscope and know what I'm looking at? :cry:
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    (Original post by colabottles)
    Will I ever look down a microscope and know what I'm looking at? :cry:
    No, but you'll get better at blagging it.
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    (Original post by Fission_Mailed)
    No, but you'll get better at blagging it.
    I'm okay if it's a blood film, but if it's tissue samples then I don't have a clue :sad:
 
 
 
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