TSR Med Students' Society Part VI

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    Realistically, most people work for the NHS anyway. My concern is that there's obviously going to be a change where most people won't work for the NHS - which is concerning. Compulsory work just antagonises the workforce..:
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    I love how the bbc just casually slips in that medical students will be expected to work for the nhs for 4 years afterwards. That's a pretty big thing to be signing up for.

    Extra places is great. But it's not really that simple. Is every medical school just going to increase numbers by 25% or are there going to be new medical schools? How are they physically going to accommodate them in lecture theatres etc? Are there enough attached placement hospitals? From what I gather, London hospitals are already fairly saturated, can they cope with the extra and everyone get a good learning experience?
    Is he going to increase foundation places? Or are people going to end up with the real possibility of no job at the end of it?
    It will cost more but we'll just charge foreign students more? Why would anyone want to come when we're acting the way we are (with brexit and chasing out 'foreign trained' doctors). And we're going to charge them an absolute fortune for the pleasure of coming here.

    Is this just going to bring us back to a huge bottleneck in training again ten years down the line?

    Again, Hunt is trying to fix a complex situation with a pretty plaster. It's not that simple.

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    (Original post by ForestCat)
    Is he going to increase foundation places? Or are people going to end up with the real possibility of no job at the end of it?
    This is usually the kind of foresight that gets lost in these plans.

    Interestingly, however, this year we have had nearly 10 FY1 vacancies that went unfilled, to the point where the trust is advertising non-training FY1 posts throughout the year. This means we're routinely having days during the week where there isn't a house officer on call (which doesn't bode well given the amount of SHO and reg vacancies that co-exist). This is largely due to the fact that locum rates are about that of a bank HCA.
    #14

    (Original post by Becca-Sarah)
    Unlikely to be enforceable though, surely? Unless this a strange way of wording "GMC to charge stupidly excessive amount for Cert of Good Standing required for overseas work"... Given how Massey is in Hunt's pocket anyway, I wouldn't be too surprised if that's the way they play it.*
    Nah it is very easy huge fine. Don't pay it then well...No return until the UK until you do. Most people don't want to cut ties completely.

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    (Original post by Etomidate)
    This is usually the kind of foresight that gets lost in these plans.

    Interestingly, however, this year we have had nearly 10 FY1 vacancies that went unfilled, to the point where the trust is advertising non-training FY1 posts throughout the year. This means we're routinely having days during the week where there isn't a house officer on call (which doesn't bode well given the amount of SHO and reg vacancies that co-exist). This is largely due to the fact that locum rates are about that of a bank HCA.
    Yup we have some. Some specialties made the amazing solution of just getting rid of twilight shifts. One team now routinely runs on half the doctors it did when I was there a year ago when it was busy but enjoyable. Now....

    Our Locum rates have held up for now...*
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    (Original post by hopes)
    how did you contact them? Realised a mistake on mine but already submitted the application so couldn't change it!*
    [email protected]
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    There's an amount often quoted for how much it costs to train a doctor... 220K. How was that amount calculated? Or approximated?



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    (Original post by ForestCat)
    I love how the bbc just casually slips in that medical students will be expected to work for the nhs for 4 years afterwards. That's a pretty big thing to be signing up for.

    Extra places is great. But it's not really that simple. Is every medical school just going to increase numbers by 25% or are there going to be new medical schools? How are they physically going to accommodate them in lecture theatres etc? Are there enough attached placement hospitals? From what I gather, London hospitals are already fairly saturated, can they cope with the extra and everyone get a good learning experience?
    Is he going to increase foundation places? Or are people going to end up with the real possibility of no job at the end of it?
    It will cost more but we'll just charge foreign students more? Why would anyone want to come when we're acting the way we are (with brexit and chasing out 'foreign trained' doctors). And we're going to charge them an absolute fortune for the pleasure of coming here.

    Is this just going to bring us back to a huge bottleneck in training again ten years down the line?

    Again, Hunt is trying to fix a complex situation with a pretty plaster. It's not that simple.

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    As always, what I was going to post: p

    I don't know what's more worrying. The BBC casually slipping in mandatory work in the NHS for 4 years? Or the BMA seemingly happy with that?

    Regardless, the increased number of students will result in a bottleneck of career progression (and not allowed to leave!).
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    (Original post by Smile88egc)
    I'm actually not against a limited period of mandatory working for the NHS since training is still heavily subsidised but I think 4 years is too much and puts you 2 years into a training programme. It should be 2 years at most.
    Can see many choosing to study medicine outside of the UK as a result of this though.

    1500 extra places at med school is great, what a shame is a decade too late...
    Perhaps, but you SHOULD be angry about what JH has just done:

    1) This was not introduced as a benign 'things are going ok but we should probably do this' measure. Its a direct response to his new contract and the fact that he knows how **** its going to be. Forcing your employees to work for you because you know they'd leave if you didn't is a terrible thing to do.
    2) This removes a huge amount of power doctors had to decide our working conditions. If things got too bad, we could leave. Now we can't which means that for that 4 years the NHS, in particular the local managers, have the power to impose any conditions they want on you. Halve your staffing? Sure why not, what are you going to do about it doctor? Nothing :laugh:
    3) This sets a substantial precedent and there's a big slippery slope argument here. First it'll be no private work. Then it'll be that you must work for the NHS and no one else. Then it'll be 6 years etc etc.
    4) Bear in mind this period of indentured servitude will be 9-10 years, not 4. The conditions you see juniors under when you apply will be a decade removed from what you will be working under.
    5) The fact that the BBC are hiding this is very clearly bias.
    6) Extra med school places sounds great. Sadly, what we need most are extra regs and consultants, and it'll be 12-20 years before they come through in large numbers. By then the population bubble will have passed! Until then, all this anti-foreign doctor mantra means you and I are screwed.
    7) Unprovoked attacks on EU doctors who have upheld our NHS for decades. Not so much in this article but the preceding 'we need more British doctors' announcement very much was.
    8) The timing of this announcement is no coincidence. The BMA caves, then mere days later JH launches a fresh round of how can I **** my employees? This is a powerplay based on the BMA being weak. If we do nothing now he'll know he can do whatever he wants to us in the future, and all the strikes we did this year will be for nothing.

    If this goes through I will start a thread saying people should not apply for medicine any more. Offering yourself to the DoH to do whatever they want to you when they clearly hate doctors is absolutely not worth it. Train abroad if you're that keen. The UK is done.
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    Thanks
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    Edit: Sorry guys, apparently I'm too tired to edit posts properly. If a mod could delete this one and leave my one below that would be great!


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    The times actually led with the headline about not being able to leave for 4 years this morning instead of trying to hide it in the story like the BBC. I just really hope this doesn't affect me!

    Norman Lamb seems to have hit the nail on the head with his comments about the fiasco this morning. Increasingly being swayed Lib Dem.



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    Shock horror, union caving sees stronger government response, who would have predicted that?

    Very frustrated, not just at the biased media coverage, not just about Hunt's (and Massey's) typical demonisation and privatisation scheme, not just the total abstract failure of our union, but the general public response to Hunt's decision is to applaud him because "we have to claw back the money, the Armed Forces do it" - but the Armed Forces pay your training and a wage, THEN lock you in for years, and not a peep is said.

    But hey, WE HAVE STICKERS
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    (Original post by ForestCat)
    I don't know. Whilst people might not have plans to leave, being told you cannot leave tends to rub people the wrong way. The great thing about medicine is it gives you a lot of options and choice about where you want to work in the world. People won't want to lose that option (I know that its not permanent but I know that fy3 or early breaks in training are getting more and more popular).
    This, absolutely. I currently have no plans to work outside of the UK (although to be fair I'm only four weeks into my first
    year ), but I would not appreciate being told I CAN'T.

    I don't see how it could be enforceable for current students. Sadly might be a different story for future cohorts.
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    Also the idea of taxpayers and medics being separate groups of people is laughable; medics pay taxes. Medics also pay tuition fees. :sigh:

    The amount thrown about, I can't seem to find an actual calculation for the estimate. Does it include the salary paid during training?

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    (Original post by fleur_de_haine)
    I've managed to lose my stethoscope so need a replacement. I've been using a Littmann Classic II so far and have no complaints. Should I go for the same again, or the Classic III (or anything else?) 4th year student if that makes a difference?

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    I splurged on the III but don't think it's worth it. The changing paed diaphragm to bell is too troublesome and there's no way to carry the removed bell/rubber ring so you won't be doing it regularly to justify the premium.

    Unless you're set on using the paeds diaphragm. Then maybe.
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    (Original post by Newtothis83)
    Also the idea of taxpayers and medics being separate groups of people is laughable; medics pay taxes. Medics also pay tuition fees. :sigh:

    The amount thrown about, I can't seem to find an actual calculation for the estimate. Does it include the salary paid during training?
    I don't know the source but its a commonly cited figure. It'll be based on the amount the hospitals are paid to train us. Its also about how much international students are charged.

    I think its excluding tuition fees - the cost of training is supposedly £250,000.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    I don't know the source but its a commonly cited figure. It'll be based on the amount the hospitals are paid to train us. Its also about how much international students are charged.

    I think its excluding tuition fees - the cost of training is supposedly £250,000.
    Thye must be very rich to pay such high fees.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    I don't know the source but its a commonly cited figure. It'll be based on the amount the hospitals are paid to train us. Its also about how much international students are charged.

    I think its excluding tuition fees - the cost of training is supposedly £250,000.
    Lots of interesting (referenced) analysis on the JDCF - basically it's codswollop. The figure is nowhere near that high (and includes what we pay) and is given to hospitals and there is absolutely no paper trail on how that money is spent - i.e., it is absolutely not a cold day in hell's chance it is spent on medical education. It's instead spent to prop up service provision.
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    (Original post by Beska)
    Lots of interesting (referenced) analysis on the JDCF - basically it's codswollop. The figure is nowhere near that high (and includes what we pay) and is given to hospitals and there is absolutely no paper trail on how that money is spent - i.e., it is absolutely not a cold day in hell's chance it is spent on medical education. It's instead spent to prop up service provision.
    That last statement I have heard from sources to be to true.

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    Will not be surprised if these 1500 extra places magically turn out to be at Buckingham, UCLan, etc.*
 
 
 
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