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    I fail to see how that's "working for free" if they're getting money in return (i.e. JSA). :dontknow:
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    (Original post by Lantana)
    Which means we'll appreciate you teaching us!
    You wont be saying that soon - they have given me the hardest thing to teach. I think im having a breakdown at the thought of it.
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    Did some management training recently, among the recognised forms of bad management are 1) the Pidgeon model - fly in, squawk, **** everywhere and leave again; and 2) The Mushroom model - bury in ****, keep in dark. Delightful. The NHS has this in bucketfuls...starting from the health secretary downwards...
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    (Original post by Becca-Sarah)
    I fail to see how that's "working for free" if they're getting money in return (i.e. JSA). :dontknow:
    It's a pretty **** system. A mate of mine went through it while in college. He had to work 30 hours a week to get his JSA (he'd be unable to continue in collegue without it). He had to do a couple of week placement (three I think) in ASDA essentially working as free labour. He had the same shifts as everyone else and did exactly the same work but was paid essentially £1.50 an hour.

    The worst part is that the ASDA obviously has a job open as it was filling those hours but won't hire anybody as they can get free labour from the job centre. It's a massive piss take.

    If the company can offer somebody 30 hours a week of work there is quite clearly a job available there, so why not just put it in as a probational period (where you're paid an actual wage) and if they quit then their job seekers are stopped for six months (I think) because you've quit your job.

    This system is deeply flawed.
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    (Original post by RollerBall)
    It's a pretty **** system. A mate of mine went through it while in college. He had to work 30 hours a week to get his JSA (he'd be unable to continue in collegue without it). He had to do a couple of week placement (three I think) in ASDA essentially working as free labour. He had the same shifts as everyone else and did exactly the same work but was paid essentially £1.50 an hour.

    The worst part is that the ASDA obviously has a job open as it was filling those hours but won't hire anybody as they can get free labour from the job centre. It's a massive piss take.

    If the company can offer somebody 30 hours a week of work there is quite clearly a job available there, so why not just put it in as a probational period (where you're paid an actual wage) and if they quit then their job seekers are stopped for six months (I think) because you've quit your job.

    This system is deeply flawed.
    The issue there is if you take someone on as permanent staff, it's damn hard to get rid of them. Surely better to give them a short placement - if it works out, offer a permanent position. If it doesn't, you've filled the spot for a few weeks and the person's got some experience to put on their CV. Offering 3 weeks work placement is not the same as having a job open, it's just 3 weeks where the existing staff don't have to work quite so hard.
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    (Original post by Becca-Sarah)
    The issue there is if you take someone on as permanent staff, it's damn hard to get rid of them. Surely better to give them a short placement - if it works out, offer a permanent position. If it doesn't, you've filled the spot for a few weeks and the person's got some experience to put on their CV. Offering 3 weeks work placement is not the same as having a job open, it's just 3 weeks where the existing staff don't have to work quite so hard.
    That's not how it works in actuality though. When he left another JSA guy was sent in. They keep rotating workers, a few months later he was offered the same placement again but declined any interest in the scheme and was allowed off it.

    They don't have to take them on as permanent staff but they can at least offer then a temporary "probational" job. That's what I proposed instead as my original post, pay them the actual wage and at the end of two months evalute them, if they're good enough keep 'em on, if they're not give them the boot. The main difference in this scheme is that they are paid a wage so the company isn't given an advantage by sacking them and getting more free labour, they'd just be paying somebody different and taking a gamble on getting a worse worker.

    It's not a "three weeks where they don't work as hard" either. The people working there don't get less hours nor can they get away with working less. You can't just cut down existing employees hours (in this style of job where it's pay per hour instead of salary) to give a JSA guy some experience, people would kick off about loss of earnings. The only difference is it's slightly harder to get overtime as a full time worker.

    You can't just make 30 hours of work in these types of jobs, you'd end up with peple being stood around doing nothing as there's normally X people doing X hours corrosponding to how many people they need on per shift. If they can manage to get another person to fill 30 hours they can put another job there.






    Regardless, on a more medically related note I'm stuck on metabolism again (I know, I know). Can anybody point me in the right direction for metabolism of amino acids? All I've managed to find is a rather generic "They're converted into krebs cycle intermediates/Acetyl CoA" but doesn't reference how. It's the last bit I need to cover in terms of metabolism. Then it's gluconeogenesis, glycogenesis glycogenlysis and ketogenesis (all of which seem pretty straight forward) before I can put this one to bed.

    Oh, and gluconeogenesis seems a bit pointless as my preliminary reading shows it only comes from pyruvate/acetyl CoA so wouldn't they be better off going into the normal cycles to produce way more ATP than going back to glucose? Or does it only do this when excess energy is produced so it can be made into glycogen and stored?
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    (Original post by RollerBall)
    Regardless, on a more medically related note I'm stuck on metabolism again (I know, I know). Can anybody point me in the right direction for metabolism of amino acids? All I've managed to find is a rather generic "They're converted into krebs cycle intermediates/Acetyl CoA" but doesn't reference how. It's the last bit I need to cover in terms of metabolism. Then it's gluconeogenesis, glycogenesis glycogenlysis and ketogenesis (all of which seem pretty straight forward) before I can put this one to bed.

    Oh, and gluconeogenesis seems a bit pointless as my preliminary reading shows it only comes from pyruvate/acetyl CoA so wouldn't they be better off going into the normal cycles to produce way more ATP than going back to glucose? Or does it only do this when excess energy is produced so it can be made into glycogen and stored?

    the catabolism of amino acids you mean, or are you also interested in our capacity to synthesise some of them? each of the amino acids takes its own funky little route to get either a TCA intermediate or pyruvate or acetyl CoA which are long multistep pathways with different enzymes that are all regulated in different ways (although there are themes). slight oversimplification as some AAs converge mid-breakdown but meh . probably the most useful distinction would be those AAs which are 'ketogenic' (why?) converging 'below' the level of pyruvate, those which are gluconeogenic and those which are mixed (few examples, not all of them). not sure i would describe all of those pathways as straightforward though but it's good you've got them!

    NO. NO NO NO! not acetyl-CoA, never acetyl-CoA, ever, unless you think of your patients in terms of plant biochemistry. you're getting very very muddled, you're missing the big thing of considering metabolic heterogeneity in different tissues. which cells and tissues have an absolute requirement for glucose and during which time periods? which tissues are capable of gluconeogenesis? how does this tie in with the neurohormonal regulation of metabolism? it also shows you aren't really understanding metabolic regulation at a cellular level either, you can't just 'make' ATP very easily (can of worms), you can only replenish the continually turning over stock. how is the TCA cycle and electron transport chain regulated as a consequence?
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    (Original post by fairy spangles)
    You wont be saying that soon - they have given me the hardest thing to teach. I think im having a breakdown at the thought of it.
    They've given our 5th years venesection, PR-yay!, and other such stuff like that to teach once to one group. We've all done it before so it should be just guiding us.

    (Original post by RollerBall)
    Regardless, on a more medically related note I'm stuck on metabolism ...
    *sticks fingers in ears and talks to self*

    My hospital was on the regional news talking about how it's going the way of staffs
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    (Original post by John Locke)
    the catabolism of amino acids you mean, or are you also interested in our capacity to synthesise some of them? each of the amino acids takes its own funky little route to get either a TCA intermediate or pyruvate or acetyl CoA which are long multistep pathways with different enzymes that are all regulated in different ways (although there are themes). slight oversimplification as some AAs converge mid-breakdown but meh . probably the most useful distinction would be those AAs which are 'ketogenic' (why?) converging 'below' the level of pyruvate, those which are gluconeogenic and those which are mixed (few examples, not all of them). not sure i would describe all of those pathways as straightforward though but it's good you've got them!
    Looks like I'll just be looking up which are ketogenic/gluconeogenic and calling it a day. So essentially they break down into either intermediates or pyruvate/acetyl CoA. Presumably ketogenic being those which go into ketogenesis in absense of carbohydrates? I think I'll give that a miss then and write a brief paragraph on it. I really don't fancy learning the pathways of 20 odd different molecules.

    NO. NO NO NO! not acetyl-CoA, never acetyl-CoA, ever, unless you think of your patients in terms of plant biochemistry. you're getting very very muddled, you're missing the big thing of considering metabolic heterogeneity in different tissues. which cells and tissues have an absolute requirement for glucose and during which time periods? which tissues are capable of gluconeogenesis? how does this tie in with the neurohormonal regulation of metabolism? it also shows you aren't really understanding metabolic regulation at a cellular level either, you can't just 'make' ATP very easily (can of worms), you can only replenish the continually turning over stock. how is the TCA cycle and electron transport chain regulated as a consequence?
    Okay, now I'm lost. I haven't looked into metabolic regulation what so ever. After I have the stock pathways down my next objective is the look at what happens during starvation/short term and long term if that helps? As far as I'm aware no cells have an absolute need for glucose? The only arguable one would be the brain which has X requirement of glucose per day (10% iirc?) the rest it can get from ketones.

    I just don't see why you would need to turn pyruvate back into glucose? I know you don't "make" ATP but you create it from ADP/AMP which in my basic mind is a similar thing for sake of simplification. Is it just when you have enough ATP for that cells current metabolic rate but have excess pyruvate/oxelacetate/intermediates in the cell it convertes them to glucose to convert to glycogen as you can't store excess ATP?
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    Mega minds of TSR medics, I seek knowledge!

    Will rubbing my newly formed scar on my face with vitamin e cocoa butter cream make the permanent scar smaller?

    I've heard all sorts.
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    (Original post by ThisLittlePiggy)
    Mega minds of TSR medics, I seek knowledge!

    Will rubbing my newly formed scar on my face with vitamin e cocoa butter cream make the permanent scar smaller?

    I've heard all sorts.
    I've heard good things about BioOil, though mainly for pregnancy stretch marks, which I presume you don't have on your face. I'm now just intrigued as to how you acquired this scar. Knowing you there's probably an interesting story behind it :holmes:
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    (Original post by Becca-Sarah)
    I've heard good things about BioOil, though mainly for pregnancy stretch marks, which I presume you don't have on your face. I'm now just intrigued as to how you acquired this scar. Knowing you there's probably an interesting story behind it :holmes:
    Some *******y ******* punched me on beerienteering. Actually trying to avoid trouble landed me in the thick of it but at least the police caught him, and for the cctv, he's getting done for assault.

    Ta for the info!
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    (Original post by ThisLittlePiggy)
    Some *******y ******* punched me on beerienteering. Actually trying to avoid trouble landed me in the thick of it but at least the police caught him, and for the cctv, he's getting done for assault.

    Ta for the info!
    ****. Glad you're (reasonably) ok and that the **** is getting done for it

    Incidentally, how's final year going? Am rather stunned to realise that when I come back, you'll be a fully qualified doc! (Please say you're staying there so you can be an awesome FY1 to me when I'm still a baby 4th year? :puppyeyes:)
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    (Original post by Becca-Sarah)
    ****. Glad you're (reasonably) ok and that the **** is getting done for it

    Incidentally, how's final year going? Am rather stunned to realise that when I come back, you'll be a fully qualified doc! (Please say you're staying there so you can be an awesome FY1 to me when I'm still a baby 4th year? :puppyeyes:)
    I am glad that a scar is the worse I managed. A chap I know got a orbital blow out fracture earlier last week whilst walking home. Totally unprovoked also.

    I am miffed about the scar but hopefully It'll minimise.

    Yeah! It is scary for me to think that as well. You'll be one of my many minions: the sort that'll do all my PRs and other crap jobs!

    If you're nice, I may let you home 30 minutes early!

    TLP
    x
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    (Original post by ThisLittlePiggy)
    I am miffed about the scar but hopefully It'll minimise.
    Dude, wat?
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    (Original post by RollerBall)
    Looks like I'll just be looking up which are ketogenic/gluconeogenic and calling it a day. So essentially they break down into either intermediates or pyruvate/acetyl CoA. Presumably ketogenic being those which go into ketogenesis in absense of carbohydrates? I think I'll give that a miss then and write a brief paragraph on it. I really don't fancy learning the pathways of 20 odd different molecules.
    there are certain amino acids which will come up time and time again that you should know the 'pathways' (1 step) of e.g. glutamate, alanine etc for reasons which should be clear once you have done whole organism amino acid metabolism (as AA in particular is impossible to understand based on just the reactions going on in a single cell). also note by intermediates you mean intermediates of the 'final common pathway' yeah?

    (Original post by RollerBall)
    Okay, now I'm lost. I haven't looked into metabolic regulation what so ever. After I have the stock pathways down my next objective is the look at what happens during starvation/short term and long term if that helps? As far as I'm aware no cells have an absolute need for glucose? The only arguable one would be the brain which has X requirement of glucose per day (10% iirc?) the rest it can get from ketones.
    okay, it's impossible to understand any of the reactions without understanding their regulation at all so presumably you have done a bit of this at the level of the cell (cf. phosphofructokinase or pyruvate dehydrogenase?) and then there is the additional layer of what happens in a whole person in different tissues under fed conditions for each type of substrate and then the additional additional layer of the whole organism starvation response. okay, proof by counterexample; erythrocytes - how do they produce energy? unfortunately that's a bit of a misunderstanding. in the fed state and during the acute starvation response the brain relies almost exclusively on glucose as a metabolic substrate, it takes a few days for it to be able to switch to utilising ketones after which is can manly, but not exclusively, rely on those as substrate (we're now in the chronic starvation response). if what you were suggesting was the case then why would hypoglycemia, effective or absolute, cause coma? although that said that's a bit more complicated but certainly one way to think about it.

    (Original post by RollerBall)
    I just don't see why you would need to turn pyruvate back into glucose? I know you don't "make" ATP but you create it from ADP/AMP which in my basic mind is a similar thing for sake of simplification. Is it just when you have enough ATP for that cells current metabolic rate but have excess pyruvate/oxelacetate/intermediates in the cell it convertes them to glucose to convert to glycogen as you can't store excess ATP?
    okay, you need to think what questions you need to ask to be able to understand the reason. start with; how do we maintain plasma [glucose] and why is this important? why if i deplete you of almost all of your glycogen stores by making you run a marathon do i still see the ever faithful ~5mM? okay put it this way, cells have a finite possible [ATP] dictating by the amount of A that they create yeah? it may or may not surprise you that actually the cellular [ATP] is almost perfectly constant in all cells regardless of the activity they are producing (cf. resting SkM vs fully active tickets-to-the-gun-show SkM). how? because the metabolic coupling of activity to substrate utilisation is so incredibly good and regulated in a way that amplifies the sensitivity of the system. so there is basically never a capacity for a cell to produce any more ATP than it already has. there are only 2 places that gluconeogenesis can occur in the body (at least of significance) although almost certainly the only one you need to know about is the liver, king/queen of metabolism and as such one of John Locke's top organs. under normal physiological circumstances the liver is a net glucose exporter and once you explain why that is important (cf. above question) you will begin to see why it's such a bloody useful pathway to have, an understanding that will be reenforced when you come to the (hyper) acute and chronic starvation responses. also it brings me back to which 2 tissues actually have the important stores of glycogen? only 1 of them can use GNG so the reason you suggested cannot be true. think about your ketogenesis you learnt, link the livers role there with this and the pieces should start to come together?


    im not sure how useful i am being, i could just literally tell you the answers but i don't think it would add much to your understanding or make you very likely to retain the, clinically important , information for any length of time. However if you'd rather have short answers do say and i will . bit of a beast to explain here tbh, needs lots of time, paper and proper talking unfortunately! it will make sense at the end though, you need to have covered it all to fit the jigsaw together but it will come promise!
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    (Original post by SMed)
    Dude, wat?
    A big boy punched me and ran away but then the fuzz caught him and battered him. Instant karma except now I've got a scar on my cheek and I need to go to court as he was so sozzled he probably doesn't remember doing it.
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    (Original post by ThisLittlePiggy)
    I am glad that a scar is the worse I managed. A chap I know got a orbital blow out fracture earlier last week whilst walking home. Totally unprovoked also.

    I am miffed about the scar but hopefully It'll minimise.

    Yeah! It is scary for me to think that as well. You'll be one of my many minions: the sort that'll do all my PRs and other crap jobs!

    If you're nice, I may let you home 30 minutes early!

    TLP
    x
    Bloody hell. Not sure if the city centre is getting worse for that kind of thing or I just know more and more people getting injured - I know guys in my (old) yeargroup have incurred a broken jaw and a cut (bottled) head for nothing.

    Ah, my minion reputation precedes me. Quite happy to whore myself out on crappy jobs in exchange for teaching... Think I may have sorted myself some time with the orthopods down here, so at least I won't be coming back completely out of practice.
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    (Original post by ThisLittlePiggy)
    A big boy punched me and ran away but then the fuzz caught him and battered him. Instant karma except now I've got a scar on my cheek and I need to go to court as he was so sozzled he probably doesn't remember doing it.
    No, I confused as to why you're not at least pleased you got a cool scar out of it? And not only that, but you want it to get smaller?!?
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    (Original post by SMed)
    No, I confused as to why you're not at least pleased you got a cool scar out of it? And not only that, but you want it to get smaller?!?
    Just because it's on my face. I quite liked the way my face was before, and as it'll be my second facial scar now.

    Totally knocked my pulling confidence right off.
 
 
 
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