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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    Basically, Farron has always rubbed me the wrong way and I think Lamb was the better contender for your leadership, however I can't see this announcement of a policy to bring back into the EU as anything more than blatant undemocratic opportunism
    I do also think Lamb was the better candidate but I very much also like Farron.

    I don't think it's blatant opportunism at all, nor is it undemocratic.

    It's no secret that we're the most pro-EU party. This is no surprise in the slightest.

    It's not undemocratic as the only way we can do it is if we get into power. To get into power, we have to be elected.


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    Corbyn tried playing nicely with the "moderates", letting them have their way on so many things and yet they still continue to undermine him against the will of the membership. I glad he has finally put his foot down with Benn and long may it continue.
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    I do also think Lamb was the better candidate but I very much also like Farron.

    I don't think it's blatant opportunism at all, nor is it undemocratic.

    It's no secret that we're the most pro-EU party. This is no surprise in the slightest.

    It's not undemocratic as the only way we can do it is if we get into power. To get into power, we have to be elected.


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    We both know a party never gets 50%+ of the vote, last time a party got over 50% of the vote was in the 1930s iirc, even if they win a majority of seats, only way to make it democratic would be to hold a second referendum, which as far as I understand isn't what is on offer.

    Additionally rather than offering a way forward the Lib Dems are now just offering to go back to what was, which may not even be possible, after all how do we know the EU would even allow us back in.

    Also btw the Greens are the most pro-EU party according to how voters voted, 63% of Labour voters voted to remain, 70% of Lib dem voters voted remain and 75% of green voters voted remain.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    People have a right to walk away from someone if they disagree with them, that is all a safe space is, a place where people can walk away to when they feel unsafe due to hate speech, threats/fears of violence or actual violence, when they as an individual feel unwanted by society.It isn't making people shut up, aka censorship, it is asking people in this specific place, almost certainly in private property, that they respect the rules of the establishment, and if it is in a private property that if they can't if they would say what they want to say outside.Again I return to my argument, if I was asked to leave somewhere, say a business this time, because I went in and said to the owner "your company is evil for reason x, y and z" and I was asked to leave, is that censorship?
    Hate speech is illegal in most cases
    Threats of violence illegal
    Fears of violence as long as they are reasonable is actually assault
    Actual violence is illegal

    If you think people who break the law will be stopped by a sign saying you can't say that here you are naive
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    advanced

    Hate speech is illegal in most cases
    Threats of violence illegal
    Fears of violence as long as they are reasonable is actually assault
    Actual violence is illegal

    If you think people who break the law will be stopped by a sign saying you can't say that here you are naive
    Yet we have seen places like gay clubs and lgbtq groups, to focus on the lgbtq community as an example, largely be bastions of solidarity and freedom from hatred and violence. Which is what made Orlando even more shocking than it already was to many in the lgbtq community. And the fact remains that while all of that is illegal we still see it happening every single day to lgbtq people, to bame/poc people, to women to other minorities such as Jewish people and Muslims.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    Yet we have seen places like gay clubs and lgbtq groups, to focus on the lgbtq community as an example, largely be bastions of solidarity and freedom from hatred and violence. Which is what backed Orlando even more shocking than it already was to many in the lgbtq community. And the fact remains that while all of that is illegal we still see it happening every single day to lgbtq people, to bame/poc people, to women to other minorities such as Jewish people and Muslims.
    We see it to everyone some lbgt people write about hating straights, bme/poc people have said terrible things about white people, women have openly said missandrist things etc. What a safe place does is create a divide and to reduce the occurrence of these incidents we should look to bring people together not drive them apart.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    We see it to everyone some lbgt people write about hating straights, bme/poc people have said terrible things about white people, women have openly said missandrist things etc. What a safe place does is create a divide and to reduce the occurrence of these incidents we should look to bring people together not drive them apart.
    Well if you faced daily abuse from a group you might end up making remarks like "**** cishet people" "they are the worse and should die" ect, these people very very rarely mean it, it is comments made in the heat of the moment due to the abuse and hate shown to them by those people.

    And while I would love to bring people together until society is fully tolerant and accepting safe spaces have a use and a need, as somewhere that is fully tolerant and accepting. A healthy white cis hetrosexual man who has a roof over their head and can afford food can walk down the street and not fear any kind of attack because of who they are, or be insulted by a stranger for how they dress, or who they hold hands with, or the colour of their skin. Until everyone can do that safe spaces have a purpose, our goal should be to help make society more tolerant and liberal and accepting, but that won't happen over night.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    Well if you faced daily abuse from a group you might end up making remarks like "**** cishet people" "they are the worse and should die" ect, these people very very rarely mean it, it is comments made in the heat of the moment due to the abuse and hate shown to them by those people.

    And while I would love to bring people together until society is fully tolerant and accepting safe spaces have a use and a need, as somewhere that is fully tolerant and accepting. A healthy white cis hetrosexual man who has a roof over their head and can afford food can walk down the street and not fear any kind of attack because of who they are, or be insulted by a stranger for how they dress, or who they hold hands with, or the colour of their skin. Until everyone can do that safe spaces have a purpose, our goal should be to help make society more tolerant and liberal and accepting, but that won't happen over night.
    Yes white straight cis men are never attacked for who they are. People already see them as the worst people in society but you fail to see the problems you are causing.

    What you have said there is people can talk about committing genocide against a group and you will ignore it because the other group also said something nasty and they should be punished.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/14...-most-derided/

    Imagine the reaction if I suggested killing all blacks and females and then compare it to suggesting killing all whites and males.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Yes white straight cis men are never attacked for who they are. People already see them as the worst people in society but you fail to see the problems you are causing.

    What you have said there is people can talk about committing genocide against a group and you will ignore it because the other group also said something nasty and they should be punished.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/14...-most-derided/

    Imagine the reaction if I suggested killing all blacks and females and then compare it to suggesting killing all whites and males.
    The difference is people are killing black people and women for being black and for being female already, you suggesting it is what someone else is doing. Nobody is out there killing men because they are men or killing white people because they are white (and any one offs are just that, one offs)
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    The difference is people are killing black people and women for being black and for being female already, you suggesting it is what someone else is doing. Nobody is out there killing men because they are men or killing white people because they are white (and any one offs are just that, one offs)
    Yes whereas white people openly plan and murder blacks for sport.
    You say that they aren't being killed for being white then dismiss all the times people have been killed for it as a 1 off but when it is the other way around it is part of a systematic oppression.

    I was also talking about more than just killings as a safe space helps no one when someone wants to murder a group as seen in Orlando, but the smaller things as well in the manner groups are talked about.
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    The Tory's are gaining my respect through Phillip Davies reply to people demanding a second referendum compared to farron and especially labours David lammy urging MPs to ignore the public
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    (Original post by cBay)
    Corbyn tried playing nicely with the "moderates", letting them have their way on so many things and yet they still continue to undermine him against the will of the membership. I glad he has finally put his foot down with Benn and long may it continue.
    The majority of potential Labour voters are 'moderates', voters matter more than the Labour membership. Corbyn and his merry band of Marxists had their chance to win over Labour voters, they have failed - his days are numbered. I'd be surprised if he survived the day. He brought ALL of this upon himself.
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    (Original post by Snufkin)
    The majority of potential Labour voters are 'moderates', voters matter more than the Labour membership. Corbyn and his merry band of Marxists had their chance to win over Labour voters, they have failed - his days are numbered. I'd be surprised if he survived the day. He brought ALL of this upon himself.
    How exactly as he had a chance to win over Labour voters when he hasn't had a general election in order to put forward an economic platform for the population to vote on?
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    (Original post by cBay)
    How exactly as he had a chance to win over Labour voters when he hasn't had a general election in order to put forward an economic platform for the population to vote on?
    Every PMQs and media interview is a chance to win people over. Unfortunately he has performed dreadfully in PMQs and he ignores the media. He hasn't even attempted to modify his views, this tells me that he doesn't actually care if Labour win the next GE or not. Your hero is dying, say your goodbyes.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    The Tory's are gaining my respect through Phillip Davies reply to people demanding a second referendum compared to farron and especially labours David lammy urging MPs to ignore the public
    Yea I agree that the calls of politicians to ignore the referendum is quite frankly pathetic and shows the entitlement of the political class. I am dismayed that it seems like so many people have voted for leave based on lies and bull**** but it is what it is. The result is just as much remain's fault for being so useless at explaining WHY leaving is so bad at the economy (instead of just telling people it is), why this wasn't a vote on immigration (and of course explaining the economic benefits of immigration), and how the EU, despite all its faults, is actually a hell of a lot more democratic than the UK is.
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    (Original post by cBay)
    Lib Dems are saying if there is a general election then they will run on a platform of rejecting the referendum and staying in the EU. I think it would see their vote share grow, gaining back some of the young voters they have lost, however for many more it will increase the perception that they are power hungry and can't be trusted. Either way they should have kept their mouths shut until an election had actually been called, coming out with that now will only decrease the chances that Boris or whoever will call an election.
    Worth noting that parliament has to call the election and not the PM here.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Worth noting that parliament has to call the election and not the PM here.
    aye but the tories will only vote for it if their leader gives them the thumbs up
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    (Original post by cBay)
    aye but the tories will only vote for it if their leader gives them the thumbs up
    A small group of rebels who don't like the new leader is all that's needed for a MoNC to pass and then we either see a labour government under corbyn or a new election.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    A small group of rebels who don't like the new leader is all that's needed for a MoNC to pass and then we either see a labour government under corbyn or a new election.
    Yea I suppose that's true, it could work, but then of course you have the Labour MPs who would rather have BoJo as PM than Corbyn. In any case, I can't see Labour forming a minority government when a single party forms the majority so it would have to go to an election (iirc if no new government can be formed in 2 weeks, then an election is called).
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    Indications of half of the shadow cabinet resigning today reportedly.

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