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    (Original post by LockheedSpooky)
    Major US military law experts: IDF ‘contentious’ targeting complies with international law






    You shouldn't have any confusion as to their prominence, as even the UN itself defers to them for advice.



    Professor Michael Schmitt

    [size=4][color=#ef5c61][b]
    Nice of you to dismiss what I said as lots of waffle when I exposed this useless and non-existent group as full of a bunch of murderer sympathisers and corrupt ambassadors. Obviously, you had no comeback.

    The UN did not defer to them for advice. They included their findings in a report, presumably because they were the most recent. No website, no other publicity. It's not a credible group.

    If they were a group which the UN genuinely wanted to use for advice they'd at least have a website to publish their own findings, surely?

    Got to C/P this because it doesn't show up in the quote:

    Two leading US experts on the law of armed conflict have concluded that IDF targeting complies with international law even where it was “contentious,” and that IDF positions “on targeting largely track those of the US military.

    This isn't exactly the best standard to follow...

    Although formally their report says it is not judging specific instances from the summer Gaza War, the unmistakable conclusion of the report is to support the IDF’s approach almost across the board in the principles it brought to targeting during the war – principles at the core of the public debate over alleged war crimes.

    Very sweetly worded. Not judging specific instances means that they didn't look at actually what happened in the war, they only judged what the IDF were telling them they were planning on doing. The use of "approach," "principles," and "brought to x" imply they were judged on what they said they were doing, i.e. targeting Hamas bases. If they aren't judging specific instances in the war then they aren't judging whether these principles, even if they are so in accordance, were actually carried out. Accounts of firing on random buildings after a fellow soldier is killed show that this is what is important. Judge the outcome, not the "approach."

    Because of the authors’ prominence and the unprecedented inside access they were given to IDF operations, the impact of the report could be wide-ranging and even influence decisions by the International Criminal Court on the issues.

    Time will tell.
    The two authors of the 52-page report – a summary of which was posted on the academic legal blog Just Security on Friday, but is being reported in the mainstream media for the first time here, in The Jerusalem Post – are Michael Schmitt and John Merriam.

    The JPost can't be considered mainstream media; it's focus is largely on Israel and it's hugely biased.

    In the academic debate over how aggressively Western militaries can fight against adversaries such as Hamas or al-Qaida, which purposely endanger civilians in war, Schmitt is one of the leading voices in the US and globally for a more aggressive posture.

    Schmitt is the top expert on the law of armed conflict at the US Naval War College and also holds posts at NATO, Harvard and Exeter in England. Previously, he was a US Air Force lawyer and is widely influential on militaries’ practices even beyond the US.

    Merriam also holds a post on the law of armed conflict at the Naval War College and continues to serve as a major and a lawyer in the US Army.

    The summary says that “Israel has long resisted publicly revealing its targeting methods and even some of its specific positions on the law of armed conflict, fearing that doing so” would help “its adversaries” and “be exploited” by its international critics.

    It continues, “This may be changing….The IDF invited us to Israel to examine its targeting practices…. We visited an operational IDF headquarters (the Gaza Division) and observed its targeting cells; reviewed the targeting procedures of both ground and air forces … visited a Hamas attack tunnel; examined combat footage… and interviewed IDF officers – both legal advisers and operators.”

    Skip all the bits about how Israel's OPs come under criticism from the public about the rule of proportionality: "Sparked by the murder of three Israeli teenagers by Hamas militants, this short but violent conflict resulted in over 2,100 killed on the Palestinian side, as well as widespread destruction and damage to civilian infrastructure. Israel suffered roughly 70 casualties during the operation" This paragraph goes on to talk about the psychological effects of "terrified Israeli civilians"... after the loss of (I think) 66 Israeli soldiers and 4 civilians? How do the palestinians feel, after 1500 of their civilians were killed? A clearly very short sighted report.

    Schmitt writes that the IDF’s targeting practices are “broadly within the mainstream of contemporary state practice, but the nuances… can only be understood” in Israel’s specific context.

    He notes that the “Israeli population views itself as ‘under siege’ – Israel is surrounded by foes” who regularly launch rockets at Israeli populations centers.

    Again, skip the bit: "cheap, widely available, and highly inaccurate rockets"

    “These rockets are capable of ranging virtually the entire country,” states Schmitt. - Just including this quote makes it sound like they have advanced weaponry; they don't. Nor do they have a 170 million dollar a year missile defence system funded by America.

    He adds, “Put in terms of the law of armed conflict, the destruction of rockets and rocket-launching infrastructure (often in the form of civilian houses converted to military use in order to deter Israeli attack) has a high degree of ‘anticipated military advantage,’ such that it may justify (from the IDF’s standpoint) levels of collateral damage that may strike outside observers as potentially excessive.”

    Next, the report focuses on “the acute casualty aversion in Israeli society writ large, coupled with a pervasive fear of IDF soldiers being taken prisoner and used to exert strategic leverage over Israel.”

    Schmitt says the US’s highly criticized decision to trade five Taliban fighters for the release of US Sgt.

    Bowe Bergdahl as compared to Israel routinely releasing hundreds or even thousands of captured fighters for the return of IDF soldiers or their remains illustrates the unique Israeli mentality on the issue.

    He points out that whereas the US is a volunteer force, the IDF is a conscript force and that “nearly every Israeli family has loved ones who have confronted, are confronting, or will confront the risk of capture or death in combat.” Likewise, every Palestinian family will confront the risk of capture or death in combat, except that they're not part of any recognised army. They're civilians.

    Schmitt discusses how the IDF’s approach and strikes on Hamas’s tunnels, cement plants and its soldiers concentrated in civilian settings sometimes lead outside observers to question Israel’s commitment to basic principles such as distinction, proportionality and minimizing civilian casualties.

    In contrast, he repeatedly equates IDF practice with US military practice and concludes that even where the IDF differs from the US, “the Israeli approach remains within the ambit of generally accepted state practice” and “in many cases, worthy of emulation.”

    He adds that the IDF legal advisers are “highly competent,” “well-trained” and have a “remarkable degree of autonomy.”

    At its core, Schmitt’s report explains the basis for unique and aggressive Israeli interpretations of what is a military objective; when civilians cross over and become “direct participants” in hostilities; “voluntary human shields”; open-ended targeting of “organized armed groups”; how much weight is given to uncertainty and doubt in targeting; and Israel’s controversial “roof-knocking” warning policy.

    Schmitt’s conclusions will be viewed as controversial in opposing academic circles and within much of the human rights community, but he is taken seriously by most parties.

    Neither the IDF, nor the Justice Ministry nor the Foreign Ministry wished to comment on the report – likely because the report’s positive analysis speaks for itself. - Did they show it to anyone else?
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    (Original post by Jubz1)
    Do you think Palestinians will ever get their statehood? I can hardly see them being included into Israel, their influence wouldn't be tolerated nor can I see the current Israeli government giving in.
    The longer things go on, the less likely and feasible a two state solution becomes. As Ehud Olmert said, we're gradually moving away from an "Algeria" situation where the Palestinians simply want an independent and viable state in the West Bank and Gaza, with the illegal settlers removed (or alternatively, I've seen some proposals that they could stay if they renounced Israeli citizenship and took Palestinian citizenship instead), to a "South Africa" situation of a struggle for political rights within a single state, by which point the PA, and any Israeli-proposed Palestinian state will be little more than a bantustan.
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    (Original post by RabbiKaplan)
    I am afraid you have misunderstood international law. Technically settlers in disputed lands that have been held from a defensive war are not illegal.
    I'm afraid it's you who have misunderstood international law. While I agree that 1967 was a defensive war on Israel's part, this by itself doesn't give Israel a legitmate claim to these territories under IL. A state exercising national defense may go beyond its national boundaries to repel an attack, but it may not go beyond its national boundaries to acquire territory. If international law provided for an exception to this basic rule under the heading of "defensive conquest," it would prove to be an irresistable attraction for a militaristic and expansionist state (who could all simply claim to be acting defensively in some capacity). That's why the concept of 'defensive conquest' is not recognized under IL.

    (Original post by RabbiKaplan)
    The Palestinians have benefited hugely from the Jews in the West Bank. It has created jobs and provided them with resources such as water and fruit. Although the Anti Semetic Western Media wont tell you that
    It's funny how this argument is only ever made by right-wing Zionists trying to defend the settlements, never by the actual Palestinians themselves.
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    Israel allows unprecedented numbers of 'palestinians' into Israel to celebrate Ramadan - Bussing in many 'palestinians' from Gaza


    'Palestinians' respond by murdering Israeli civilians.


    Like in previous years, Palestinian police worked alongside Israeli border police to control the crowd at Kalandiya, Ramallah's checkpoint and at Bethlehem checkpoint.

    Israeli border police also positioned its force in several key locations across Jerusalem's Old City, where al-Aksa is located.

    As part of policy to improve Palestinians' quality of life, hundreds permitted to visit families in territories, overseas, and attend Friday prayers at Al-Aksa Mosque.

    Every Israeli knew it would end in murder. The 'palestinians' have always reciprocated an out-stretched hand, with terrorism. Every single sodding time. Even in the comments section of the articl you see Israelis saying "I wonder how many they will kill"

    And sure enough, true to form, the 'palestinians' take advantage of the freedom to murder.


    Danny Gonen, a 25-year-old Israeli, was killed Friday afternoon in a shooting in an area close to the settlement of Dolev in the West Bank. A second was moderately injured.

    The victims were 25-year-olds hiking in the area and bathing in a local spring. Rescue forces found the two sprawled beside a car with shooting wounds.

    One sustained critical injuries and was evacuated via an IDF rescue helicopter to the Sheba Hospital at Tel Hashomer for further medical treatment. He later died of his injuries.


    The second youth, who sustained light injuries, was evacuated via ambulance to Sheba for further treatment.

    Utterly contemptible, despicable.
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    More terrorism from the perennial terrorists, as Israel's out-stretched hand during Ramadan, is reciprocated with murder and maiming.


    After opening Jerusalem up to thousands of 'palestinians' and even bussing them in from Gaza down south over to Jerusalem for Ramadan, the 'palestinians' reciprocate this gesture with terrorism on the first two days of Ramadan.

    A Border Police officer is in serious-to-critical condition after being stabbed in the neck by a terrorist near the Old City’s Damascus Gate Sunday morning.

    According to police, the attack occurred shortly after 10 a.m. while the officer was stationed at the east Jerusalem gate, where thousands of Muslims have entered for Ramadan, which commenced last week.

    “The terrorist, who is from Hebron, stabbed him from behind in the neck, seriously wounding the officer, who drew his pistol and was able to shoot him,” said Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld.

    Despicable.
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    (Original post by LockheedSpooky)
    World renowned experts from several major countries back Israel over Gaza conflict. Says they abided by international law.


    [u][size=5][color=#ef5c61]


    The UN is expected to ignore this and accuse Israel of war crimes - a judgement which was predetermined by the UN because of the Islamic bloc and its allies' dominance at the UN.

    Obviously the BBC did not deem it important enough to report this, but rest assured they will have the predetermined UN kangaroo court judgement as headline news.
    Isreal should just finish them off- they could of agreed to peace and failed to do so and the media are skewed towards the Palestinians
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    Interesting comparison.
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    'palestinian' terrorists fire rocket at Israel


    Gazan terrorists fired a single rocket at southern Israel on Tuesday night, setting off air raid sirens in the regions of Yad Mordechai, Karmiya, Zikim, and Nativ Ha'asara. The IDF said the rocket fell in an open area in the Yad Mordechai region.

    IDF sources said they detected one rocket launch from Gaza and local residents reported hearing a blast.

    Earlier this month, Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon warned that Israel won't "allow anyone to disrupt the lives" of its citizens, in response to a number of recent rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip carried out by a Salafi-Jihadist organization.

    The 'palestinians' seem intent on goading Israel into another retaliation so that they can cry to the west and appeal to the useful leftist idiots polluting Europe.
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    'palestinian' who murdered Italian pro-'palestinian' activist Vittorio Arrigoni in 2011, released for Ramadan and promptly escapes to join ISIS


    A Palestinian convicted for involvement in the abduction and murder of Italian activist Vittorio Arrigoni in 2011, reportedly escaped recently from Gaza to Syria in order to join Islamic State while on leave from prison to visit his family for the month of Ramadan.

    Palestinian newspaper Al-Quds reported that it was unclear whether Mahmoud al-Salfiti, left Gaza using tunnels or crossed through the Rafah border using a fake identity.

    A Hamas-run court sentenced him to a life sentence in 2012 for his involvement in the killing of Arrigoni.

    Arrigoni, a pro-Palestinian activist, was found strangled in an abandoned house in 2011 after a jihadi Salafi group aligned with al-Qaida abducted him and threatened to execute him unless Salafi leader Hisham al-Saidni was freed.
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    (Original post by LockheedSpooky)
    'palestinian' who murdered Italian pro-'palestinian' activist Vittorio Arrigoni in 2011, released for Ramadan and promptly escapes to join ISIS


    [u][size=4][color=#ef5c61][b]
    Do you fancy posting links along with quotes?
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    (Original post by LockheedSpooky)
    The 'palestinians' seem intent on goading Israel into another retaliation so that they can cry to the west and appeal to the useful leftist idiots polluting Europe.
    Afaik both Hamas and Israel are determined to prevent ISIS from emerging in Gaza as a serious force. They will work together to prevent that, and then go back to conflict once it is done

    As a supporter of Israel, I personally don't understand why they have been supporting Islamists from Syria; allowing the Islamists to cross the border to use their hospitals. While the Assad family has been, in rhetoric, opposed to Israel, in actual fact they have kept the peace on the Golan heights for 40 years

    Why replace that with Islamists who would be much more unpredictable?
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    (Original post by ExcitedPup)
    Afaik both Hamas and Israel are determined to prevent ISIS from emerging in Gaza as a serious force. They will work together to prevent that, and then go back to conflict once it is done

    As a supporter of Israel, I personally don't understand why they have been supporting Islamists from Syria; allowing the Islamists to cross the border to use their hospitals. While the Assad family has been, in rhetoric, opposed to Israel, in actual fact they have kept the peace on the Golan heights for 40 years

    Why replace that with Islamists who would be much more unpredictable?
    Hedging bets perhaps? If their worried an Islamist element could gain control of the Golan Heights they may be trying to win them onside. Better to have a friendly power on the border than a hostile one.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Hedging bets perhaps? If their worried an Islamist element could gain control of the Golan Heights they may be trying to win them onside. Better to have a friendly power on the border than a hostile one.
    That kind of appeasement is madness; it's feeding someone else to the crocodile in the hope he will eat you last.

    There is no reasoning with the Islamist terrorists, they are like a rabid dog.
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    Disgusting 'palestinian' terrorists beat 70 year old Israeli farmer to death


    An elderly Israeli man has died after succumbing to severe wounds suffered earlier on Wednesday after coming under attack by illegal workers.

    The Rehovot resident, 70, was initially evacuated to the Assaf Harofeh Medical Center in Tzrifin, and was later proclaimed dead by medical personnel.

    Police were summoned in the aftermath of the incident, which occurred in the the central Israeli moshav of Pedaya, and are investigating the possible motivations for the attack.
    It is widely suspected that the perpetrators are Palestinians who had worked in the agricultural community.
    Their whole (short) history has been centered on violence. They have contributed nothing else to humanity.
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    (Original post by LockheedSpooky)
    Disgusting 'palestinian' terrorists beat 70 year old Israeli farmer to death


    [u][size=6][color=#ef5c61][b]

    Their whole (short) history has been centered on violence. They have contributed nothing else to humanity.
    Can you provide links please, when you post news items?
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    'palestinian' terrorists attempt to fly drone into Israel from Gaza

    An unmanned aerial vehicle from Gaza crashed in Israeli territory near the border fence on Thursday.

    The IDF stated that it had identified the drone in Gaza airspace and deployed forces to the area to potentially stop it from crossing into Israeli territory.

    The drone crashed on its own before the IDF had reason to engage it, landing on the Israeli side of the border.
    http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...r-fence-407141


    Terrorism from Gaza has increased in recent weeks. It looks like the perennial terrorists are trying to goad Israel into another summer conflict. British and Eurotrash media staying quiet about 'palestinian' terror.

    2 Israelis murdered, 3 seriously hurt, several rockets and a drone fired towards Israel - none of these events reported by the despicable BBC propaganda network.
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    The question should be who is the Aggressor/Oppressor not who attacked who.

    As long as Israel continues this dumbfounded regime there will be only more hate that broils between the two sides. It's sad people can't see this
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    #FreePalestine
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    (Original post by ShotsFired-9941)
    The question should be who is the Aggressor/Oppressor not who attacked who.
    Exactly. Trying to look at a conflict in which there has been a long-term cycle of violence in terms of "who started it" is hopeless. Just try get two fighting kids to agree on "who started it" - both will have their own story, will disagree on what constitutes "starting it", what constitutes a hit, etc.

    A more long-term view, looking at general aims and changes in those aims through time. With that in mind, what we have is largely a settler colonial conflict with an indigenous population. With the exception of the brief post-Oslo optimism of the 1990s (which was far from perfect, always about 'compromise' rather than redress as such, but it was at least a step forward), the main Israeli attitude has always been a colonial one (though there are still a substantial number on the Israeli mainstream left who continue to hold to the post-Oslo view). The Palestinians have resisted such colonialism. Not every action taken in the course of that resistance is right, far from it, and actions can be criticised from both tactical and moral bases, but I would say the Palestinians still retain a fundamental moral right to resistance of some kind.
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    There is a not unrelated bill currently being debated in the MHoC

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