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    (Original post by getfunky!)
    :facepalm: It is Arab* Muslims, and they don't claim to have exclusive rights but they have proven to live peacefully before their land was stolen by European Jews, history shows that Jews were living alongside Arabs before the formation of Israel.
    Nonsense.

    Arab-Jewish relations were OK as long as there was no incident. As soon as anything happened in the village, the Jews would get the blame and a Muslim horde would attack them.

    'palestinians' (who back then were known as just 'Arabs') were attacking Jewish villages 100 years ago. Before Israel and settlements.
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    (Original post by well in the dark)

    I am also aware of condemnation of Zionism increasingly being mistaken, even deliberately at times, for condemnation of Judaism, and anti-Semitism wrongly cited.
    The biggest crime of all, is people not having a clue what Zionism means and demonsing it.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Nonsense.

    Arab-Jewish relations were OK as long as there was no incident. As soon as anything happened in the village, the Jews would get the blame and a Muslim horde would attack them.

    'palestinians' (who back then were known as just 'Arabs') were attacking Jewish villages 100 years ago. Before Israel and settlements.
    Hyperbole once again from you:rolleyes:

    And you didn't address the issue of settlements, how do you justify settlements?
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    (Original post by universal_set)
    Watch your language & then tell me who is violent. LOL No need to get hyper.

    I am not pointing Hamas or any other particular group. I just want a logical reason that why are you labelling militants' groups as Islamic?
    the ones that take inspiration from islamic doctrine, and have islamic agenda to secure land under islamic goverance are islamic. this may not apply to all muslims, but certainly to Islamists .

    (Original post by universal_set)
    And BTW, Israel is not a Jewish land before world war II .
    who said it was? :confused:

    (Original post by universal_set)
    it was owned by the Muslims & Jews were refugees. .
    actually it wasnt , it was 'owned' by the british, till they decided to carve up the region into various countries. so the right to decide as you seem to suggest lies with the most recent conquerer. before the british the turks owned it and before them, yes the arab, before the arabs the romans, before them the pharoes and before them, the jews. The birtish simply recognised that in giving muslims their recognised holy land of mecca, they should also do same for jews in Levant.

    (Original post by universal_set)
    So Israeli land is just Jewish occupied area. For example, if one million approx. Muslims of UK want to make east London or Bradford as a separate country then it is unjustified & rubbish.
    that is not the principle that state of israel was proposed
    (Original post by universal_set)

    Edited note: BTW, if Hamas or any Muslim will kill innocent civilians then I will hate them so I will advise them to kill Israeli soldiers because it's a war started by Israel for no logical reasons.
    of they could not kill anyone, simply try and live in peace along side jews and also accept that there must be a jewish state in the region.
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    (Original post by getfunky!)
    :facepalm: It is Arab* Muslims, and they don't claim to have exclusive rights but they have proven to live peacefully ?
    :hahaha: good one.


    (Original post by getfunky!)
    before their land was stolen by European Jews, history shows that Jews were living alongside Arabs before the formation of Israel. ?
    not alongside, but under subjigation. i dont doubt arabs have little problem living in the same country as jews, jsut so long as no jew has control over their own land. how do you think islam came to this land, the muslims stole it before the europeans you know lol, so they can hardly complain about losing it to a more superior army can they?
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    (Original post by getfunky!)
    Hyperbole once again from you:rolleyes:

    And you didn't address the issue of settlements, how do you justify settlements?
    March 1st 1920. Arabs who would later be called 'palestinians' attack a small Jewish village called Tel Hai, killing 6 villagers.

    This scene repeated itself for years.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    March 1st 1920. Arabs who would later be called 'palestinians' attack a small Jewish village called Tel Hai, killing 6 villagers.

    This scene repeated itself for years.
    A terrible event and deserves condemnation.

    Yet again you have avoided the question, as you have a pro-Israeli view, how do you justify settlements?
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    :hahaha: good one.


    not alongside, but under subjigation. i dont doubt arabs have little problem living in the same country as jews, jsut so long as no jew has control over their own land. how do you think islam came to this land, the muslims stole it before the europeans you know lol, so they can hardly complain about losing it to a more superior army can they?
    You've avoid my points, what gives European Jews exclusive rights to Palestine and rights to building illegal settlements?
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    the ones that take inspiration from islamic doctrine, and have islamic agenda to secure land under islamic goverance are islamic. this may not apply to all muslims, but certainly to Islamists .

    who said it was? :confused:


    actually it wasnt , it was 'owned' by the british, till they decided to carve up the region into various countries. so the right to decide as you seem to suggest lies with the most recent conquerer. before the british the turks owned it and before them, yes the arab, before the arabs the romans, before them the pharoes and before them, the jews. The birtish simply recognised that in giving muslims their recognised holy land of mecca, they should also do same for jews in Levant.

    that is not the principle that state of israel was proposed
    of they could not kill anyone, simply try and live in peace along side jews and also accept that there must be a jewish state in the region.

    Keep talking to yourself & good luck for making people to believe at your imaginations.
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    (Original post by getfunky!)
    A terrible event and deserves condemnation.

    Yet again you have avoided the question, as you have a pro-Israeli view, how do you justify settlements?
    I justify them in that the land captured was...

    1) Historically Jewish
    2) Captured in a war thrust upon Israel
    3) Captured from states who no longer lay claim to the land.

    In international law, you cannot be an occupier if the land you have captured did not belong to a sovereign state.

    Although Jordan and Egypt who had these lands were sovereign states, their occupation of these lands was not recognised and they no longer claim them as theirs.

    The problem is that international law has been thrown out the window and a special set of rules have been applied to Israel.


    Your problem here is that despite my proving that settlements are not the issue and that Arabs were killing Jewish villagers almost 5 decades before a single settlement, you still harp on about settlements as being a cause of conflict - when history completely contradicts this.
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    (Original post by getfunky!)
    You've avoid my points, what gives European Jews exclusive rights to Palestine and rights to building illegal settlements?
    i really havent, jsut re-direct your own question. clearly arab muslims have no exclusive rights to palestine , so its an ignorant line of questioning.

    the reality of the situation is (and always has been ) that the middle east was carved up with homelands for muslims and jews, but for some the reason the islamic world cannot get onboard with the second part.
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    (Original post by universal_set)
    Keep talking to yourself & good luck for making people to believe at your imaginations.
    i was actually talking to you, but i accpet that you like many on here have a miniscule amount of knowledge of history, the background to this issue and, essentially the bigger picture.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    [/b]

    Well no offence, but people like you are very much 'NOW' people. You look at the news and see what's happening NOW, but have no appreciation for past events which have a bearing on the kind of things you protest about.

    I on the other hand, whilst not wanting to blow my own trumpet, have a deep knowledge of events which have taken place between the two warring parties.

    For example: you say Israel is trying to cripple them. Yet it's Israel that provides them with fuel, not Egypt. It's Israel that supplies them with the necessities.

    Do you know the reason why electricity blackouts happen so often? it's not because of Israel, it's because of the 'palestinians' in the West Bank.

    Israel sells them electricity which they in turn sell to Gaza. The PA have put such a high levy of tax on the fuel, that Hamas have refused to pay it, thereby creating electricity shortages

    Additionally, it's Israel that built a lot of stuff in Gaza. They renovated the Al-Shifa hospital in the 80's for example.

    Don't forget, under Egypt's control , Gaza was a malaria-infested area with a life expectancy in the 50's.

    After Israel took over, they added 25 years to their life expectancy which ended up being higher than neighbouring Egypt and even Turkey.

    Israel has an interest in seeing Gaza prosper. Indeed Netanyahu's ideology has always been based on economic prosperity for 'palestinians'. The idea being that if they're economically viable, they are less likely to turn to violence.

    An Israeli company is the biggest exporter of 'palestinian' flowers and veg from Gaza.



    To be fair, they did vote for an internationally proscribed terrorist group with the destruction of Israel being in its charter and central to its founding.

    When you do that, you know you're voting for conflict.

    [/b]

    It's not incumbent on Israel to sell its story all the time, it's incumbent on journalists to do their job.

    But sadly rocket attacks are not reported unless Israel responds. No one is interested. If an Israeli is killed or injured, it gets into the 'middle east' section of the BBC and that's that.

    No one knows or cares about the fact that kids in Israel's south regularly go for days being unable to go to school. They are stuck in bomb shelters.




    [/b]

    Well, Israel has a free press and as I said in a previous comment - have more independent journalists than anywhere bar the US.

    In Israel, there are left wing papers and all sorts that document everything. Haaretz for example will report arrests and skirmishes daily.

    You cannot hide in Israeli society as it's the society itself, journalists, lawyers etc that keep the state in check. Just like with most democracies.



    I certainly wouldn't characterise it as an "alliance". The peace with Egypt is a very cold one and contact with them is based solely on mutual interests with regards to terrorists in the Sinai for example. There's no special relationship there, that's for sure.

    Hamas as usual made a grave blunder. They turned on Assad and lost his support, they turned on Egypt and lost their support.

    I'm afraid Israel can't be held responsible for that.



    Almost 10 years ago now. So I don't think it's suitable now to blame Israel for not leaving earlier. It's been nearly a decade.



    [/b]

    You're now confusing the issue of Gaza and the West Bank. There are no walls in Gaza and Israel has no presence there whatsoever. They have withdrawn all settlers and soldiers.

    Just as an aside, the "walled-off" comment you made is slightly disingenuous. This isn't your fault, again it's the media which only shows you the 'wall' section.

    The barrier is actually 93% a fence. Between 5-7% is a 'wall'. The reason for this was because 'palestinain' snipers used to use their higher ground to snipe at Israel motorists driving opposite.

    [/b]

    No one "stuffed" Jews there.

    Jews have had a presence in land of Israel since before 'Arabs' were even known as a people, since before the Arabic language (obviously) and before Islam.

    As an Iranian, I'm sure you'll appreciate ancient cultures - and there are few in the region as ancient as the Jewish people who are indigenous to the land of Israel.

    The fact that some Jews from Europe emigrated to the land of Israel is neither here nor there. After all, 'palestinians' didn't sprout from the ground. They are Arabs from Arabia who emigrated and conquered lands. They came in numbers into 'palestine' after the Ottoman takeover. As did the Jews from Europe. In fact it was after the Ottomans invited the Jews to emigrate to 'palestine', that Arabs followed as the economy improved and they came for labour.

    One of the most common family names amongst 'palestinians' is Al-Masri. That translates to "the Egyptian" - so you can see how they too are immigrants to the land.

    'palestine' as a region was sparsely populated for a very long time.


    --

    As an Iranian, I think your government should take a lot of the blame for inflaming tensions between Israel and 'palestinians'. It was Islamic Jihad which first started to fire rockets in this recent flare-up, and as I'm sure you're aware, they're an Iranian proxy.


    I've not answered all your questions in the correct order, but hope I got them all covered.
    Yes, you're right. I'm a 'NOW' person, who always had a little bit more sympathy towards Palestine because I can ethnically relate to them more. The environment I've been around has sculpted my viewpoint.

    In some ways I admire Israel; the technology, advancement and democracy that you have mentioned. But, the atrocities committed by them, towards Palestinians indigenous to the land, make those aspects of the country easy to overlook - like anything good.

    I don't like how Jews, however, not indigenous to the land make a sudden holy claim for it, and use this as a righteous excuse to move others off it. Yes, Palestine has been home to many indigenous Jews - and they completely deserve to remain in their homeland, much like any Arab who has settled there previously. But, these people shouldn't face a risk of losing their homes and being displaced for recent migrants, essentially. Faith is a non-issue here; although the likes of Islamists and Orthodox Extremist views challenge that. Today, Israel enjoys being an increasingly secular nation, so I dislike its continual selective reference to biblical text as a rite of passage (some Israelis do this, nothing official - that I know of).

    Hamas lost most its Iranian support when Hamas had supported the mainly Sunni uprisers in Syria, who were against the Shia Al-Asaad family. Yes, I don't like politics and religion together, and here it is in action. Irani proxy? At this stage, I doubt it. Although I know previous Iranian support for anything Palestinian has been nothing-but-fervent. Anything to help the victims of the enemy of the state, right? I still think Hamas are launching the rockets for attention, as they can't do any serious damage with them. The attention comes from the Israeli response, like you said. So, it is in the hands of Israel to decide how much of the spotlight Gaza get.

    Culture, any collaboration, normal lives and more are put on halt when war continues. The two simply need to stop and sort things out. I'm sure that's something we can both agree on.

    Again, appreciate the responses and the healthy rebuttal you have provided me. I have certainly come from our discussion the wiser. Take care.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Nonsense.

    Arab-Jewish relations were OK as long as there was no incident. As soon as anything happened in the village, the Jews would get the blame and a Muslim horde would attack them.

    'palestinians' (who back then were known as just 'Arabs') were attacking Jewish villages 100 years ago. Before Israel and settlements.
    (Original post by Chindits)
    March 1st 1920. Arabs who would later be called 'palestinians' attack a small Jewish village called Tel Hai, killing 6 villagers.

    This scene repeated itself for years.
    You were not a contemporary with those times, so you would do well to cite historical evidence for the nonsensical, even racist, hokum that you're spewing, and historical evidence that does not constitute Zionist propaganda, the kind you're taught currently in Israeli schools and from history books. History would beg to differ from your dubious narrative of events. You cannot cite evidence for 'Palestinians' having existed only as 'Arabs' prior to inception of Israel, you cannot state evidence for your distasteful claim that 'Arab hordes' would blame and attack Jews at every opportunity; and you seem to have no qualms about citing unilateral damages. From your version of events Zionists historically never engaged in any wrongdoing. Well here's a fact for you: European Jews attacked, in actual, historically recorded hordes, as opposed to your imagined 'Arab-***-Palestinian hordes', looted and killed Arabs, including Muslims and Christians both, with weapons supplied to them by colonial Britain, the weapons of the Arabs having previously been confiscated by the same. That is only one of the many misdemeanours, for lack of a stronger word, European Jews committed with impunity, prior to legitimising their atrocities in the name of a legitimate, internationally-recognised government fighting terrorism. You seem to be entirely oblivious of all of that and much more, and astonishingly knowledgeable when it comes to things that never happened.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    I justify them in that the land captured was...

    1) Historically Jewish
    2) Captured in a war thrust upon Israel
    3) Captured from states who no longer lay claim to the land.

    In international law, you cannot be an occupier if the land you have captured did not belong to a sovereign state.

    Although Jordan and Egypt who had these lands were sovereign states, their occupation of these lands was not recognised and they no longer claim them as theirs.

    The problem is that international law has been thrown out the window and a special set of rules have been applied to Israel.

    Your problem here is that despite my proving that settlements are not the issue and that Arabs were killing Jewish villagers almost 5 decades before a single settlements, you still harp on about settlements as being a cause of conflict - when history completely contradicts this.
    :rofl2: at least you agree about one point.

    So where exactly is Palestine? Considering you claim that all land is "rightfully" owned by Israel.

    And they were wrong to kill Palestinian Jews, and history does not contradict it at all as the Jewish presence was a minority in Palestine and still remained despite how vastly they were outnumbered.

    It's quite illogical to suggest that Arabs and Jews have hated each other and Arabs want to eradicate Jews when at large periods of time Palestine was under Arab rule and yet they still allowed ajews tomlive amongst them.

    It's Israel's greed for land and neglect of Palestinians that has exacerbated the situation as it constantly refuses to recognise democratically elected parties and fails to agree peace treaties - it is Israel who consistently refuses to sign peace treaties on the condition of stopping settlements and forming two states on the 1967 borders - as well refusing to leave borders open for Palestinians to freely travel as they wish, instead it chooses to influences the decision to keep borders closed for "security" reasons.

    The state should have not been created in the first place, it should have remained a one state with equal rights of all citizens regardless of faith and/or heritage.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Calm down dear.

    First of all, civilians will die in all conflicts. Children included.

    80 children died on that Malaysian plane.

    2,000 palestinians have died in Syria. Many starved to death, blockaded by their fellow Arabs.

    In response to V2 rockets from Germany, the British fire bombed whole German cities killing tens of thousands of civilians.


    All I'm saying is that the Arabs didn't get to control the whole middle east because they were invited to do so. They invaded the region and north Africa, displacing the indigenous population like Jews, Christians and Berbers.

    So I always find it funny when people talk about Jews migrating to Israel, yet the Arabs did a lot of migrating, but usually through conquering.
    Please don't patronise me, the whole "calm down, dear" **** didn't work for Cameron and it certainly doesn't work for you.
    Secondly, both children in Malaysian plane and children dying in Syria were not forgotten or passed over as "collateral damage". Their death was rightfully called a massive tragedy which it is. Both Syrian government and ISIS militants and pro- Russian rebels in Ukraine, suspected of shooting down the plane were condemned by media, senior Western politicians and people all over social media.
    But this thread is specifically about Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and if don't see how your examples are anything but a distraction from the actual point being discussed- collective punishment and bombardment of Palestinians, the disproportionate retribution against them by IDF, heavy losses of life, bombing of beaches, hospitals, schools. Yes, children die in the conflict, but those who target children and kill them indiscriminately should not be applauded and defended.
    As to your third point, are you ****ing kidding me? The Arab conquests happened centuries ago, would you also complain about Crusades, about Roman conquests of Britain, about European colonisation of both Americas and Australia?
    The issue of Palestine and Israel is far more recent and ongoing, which is why it's discussed here. Arab conquests from times gone by belong in the history books, not were the Arabs only nation to have undertaken conquests. We are talking about modern days, when Russian annexation of Crimea is called a crime and Russia is sanctioned and condemned by the Western media all over, and yet Israeli occupation of West Bank and blockade and bombardment of Gaza is aided by the same people.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    The biggest crime of all, is people not having a clue what Zionism means and demonsing it.
    If Zionism is the killing of a people indiscriminately, the denial that they ever owned the land you currently live on and that they were forcibly expelled out of their homes at one point, the very homes you currently live in, having appropriated them unlawfully and immorally, the adamant perseverance in spite of all evidence that they never even existed, then Zionism is not to be demonised, as it is a demon in itself.

    You are excellent evidence that Zionism is flourishing; its sole aim, currently, is to wipe out any sign of Palestinian life, culture, heritage and history.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    i really havent, jsut re-direct your own question. clearly arab muslims have no exclusive rights to palestine , so its an ignorant line of questioning.

    the reality of the situation is (and always has been ) that the middle east was carved up with homelands for muslims and jews, but for some the reason the islamic world cannot get onboard with the second part.
    When Palestinian Arabs have been living there already for centuries, they have just as much claim to the land.

    I've read through quite a few of your posts on this thread:
    Please stop misusing "islamic/Islamist", as Islam is represented by a large variety of nations/ethnicities, as well as holding broadly different views.

    One group of Muslims cannot speak for all, and I'll kindly suggest that you keep your posts focused on the topic of the thread and do not deviate to other topics in the hope of gaining interest on them, this is not the thread for them.

    This thread is to focus solely on the Israel-Palestine predicament.

    The Palestinians would have no trouble accepting a two state solution at them moment as they democratically elected the Palestinian Authority which seeks to recognise Israel under the 1967 borders, calling for a two-state solution and an end to building settlement.
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    (Original post by AutVinceriAutMori)
    Please don't patronise me, the whole "calm down, dear" **** didn't work for Cameron and it certainly doesn't work for you.
    Secondly, both children in Malaysian plane and children dying in Syria were not forgotten or passed over as "collateral damage". Their death was rightfully called a massive tragedy which it is. Both Syrian government and ISIS militants and pro- Russian rebels in Ukraine, suspected of shooting down the plane were condemned by media, senior Western politicians and people all over social media.
    But this thread is specifically about Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and if don't see how your examples are anything but a distraction from the actual point being discussed- collective punishment and bombardment of Palestinians, the disproportionate retribution against them by IDF, heavy losses of life, bombing of beaches, hospitals, schools. Yes, children die in the conflict, but those who target children and kill them indiscriminately should not be applauded and defended.
    As to your third point, are you ****ing kidding me? The Arab conquests happened centuries ago, would you also complain about Crusades, about Roman conquests of Britain, about European colonisation of both Americas and Australia?
    The issue of Palestine and Israel is far more recent and ongoing, which is why it's discussed here. Arab conquests from times gone by belong in the history books, not were the Arabs only nation to have undertaken conquests. We are talking about modern days, when Russian annexation of Crimea is called a crime and Russia is sanctioned and condemned by the Western media all over, and yet Israeli occupation of West Bank and blockade and bombardment of Gaza is aided by the same people.
    :congrats: hear hear! :hat:
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    my argument is a logical one and so in theory can be applied to most comparable howver the issue of islamic doctrine and subsequent land grabbing is the most pertinent one. what do all islamic groups in kashmir, chechnya, uhigur china, nigeria etc etc etc all say? that they want land to come under islamic control. same mindset of islam in the 8th century- except we are in 21st century. yes palestinians may have some claim to territory there ( borders unclear) but the islamic motive is a defunct one, and actually has hindered any progress in this area. what are Isis doing in iraq right now? marching armies in and trying to establish an islamic caliphate- what do you think happend there in 8th century? so yes, if you approach the issue form an islamic viewpoint, you are frankly stupid, in the same way if you did from some evangelical or zionist appoach) But in the islamic world it is the islamists that have all the control - who is it that can start a war at a moments notice , or chant some slogans from the quran and have a thousand human sacrifices on the doorstep to follow their bidding? it is the islamists, the sheikihs, emirs, extreme islamic leaders . they control all the poltic issues involving muslims, including palestine. so yes, in the case of palestine, hamas etc we are still dealing with backward mentalities and propaganda - which cannot be solved by simply sitting round tables.
    I only go half way through before giving up continuing, it seems you think that extremists are reflective of all member of a particular group, in which case, how can anybody follow any ideology?
 
 
 
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