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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV Watch

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    (Original post by alexgr97)
    Nope, the only one that celebrates when people die is you.

    Answer me this - do you support a two state solution, bringing peace and harmony to the region?
    Nope because anyone with common sense knows it wouldn't work out. Israel are always greedy for more land
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Nope
    Here you go then. You don't believe the Jewish people have a right to self-determination. How does it feel being an antisemite? By your logic, Kosovo shouldn't have a state too. Anything to say about that?

    because anyone with common sense knows it wouldn't work out. Israel are always greedy for more land
    Going to back that up? Israel has consistently given up land (Sinai, Gaza etc.) and been met with nothing but rocket fire. In fact, Arafat was offered 98% of the land he wanted and it was HIM who rejected it!
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    (Original post by Kadak)
    Learn your history.It was the Arab states who attacked Israel most of this century,not Palestine.
    1910 Riots against Jews
    1920 Riots against Jews
    1930 Riots against Jews
    1940 Civil War
    1950 Civil War
    1960 Domestic terrorism
    1970 - 1990 roughly peaceful
    1990 Beginning of Hamas, repeated incursions onto Israeli territory
    2000 Continuation of Hamas, this time with more advanced guerilla warfare and tunnels
    2010 Continuation of Hamas, this time with more frequent air strikes (in the form of mortars and occasional rockets)

    I have learnt my history. Have you learn yours?

    All the land that Israel has gained over the past century was purely due to wars with Palestine apart from Sinai and Golan Heights.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Nope because anyone with common sense knows it wouldn't work out. Israel are always greedy for more land
    So why did they agree to the Oslo accords? Why did they give up Gaza?

    Why did they give up Sinai, if you want to go further back?
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    (Original post by Zaki Hendrix)
    A lot of critisism there about my first post. I made a few comments based on examples I've seen. I don't see why casualty count is "innaproppriate." Tell that to all the Israeli and Palestinian families that it shouldn't be considered. Of course it is appropriate. From that data we can see the difference in numbers which acts as a springboard to see if there is also a difference in the level of destruction. Gaza have not helped by firing rockets over of course but let's not forget. East Jerusalem is a holy area for muslims and without any consideration for this it was given to the Israeli community. The lack of thought and consideration started this. I don't blame the muslims at all.

    Oh and let's not forget something. About a decade ago a conflict between Lebanon and Israel occurred. Funny how Israel seems to be caught up in the fight all the time.
    Casualty count is inappropriate when it is used for propaganda and is provoked with the purpose of gaining sympathy from the media.
    Muslims can live in East Jerusalem with no problem and can worship freely. I am currently living here for the summer (yes, East Jerusalem) and am going to class with Palestinians and Arab Israelis. None of them seem to have a problem with working/studying/living in a democratic country where they can practise their religion freely.
    I think you aren't here to see the 2 sides of the debate - comments such as 'Funny how Israel...' give you away. I think you misunderstand the masochist obsession of neighbouring arab countries to attack Israel (perhaps you should read about how the Lebanon war started) and then cry over losing the conflict.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Nope because anyone with common sense knows it wouldn't work out. Israel are always greedy for more land
    Israel is greedy for land? Giving up Gaza and Sinai is being greedy? Are you sure of what you're saying?
    You honestly sound like that one classmate noone speaks to with all your 'Hahaha's, your 'little boys' and your 'hush puppy's. Your sympathy for the Palestinian cause seems to base itself on indoctrination and mockery of that you don't understand rather than structured, logical arguments.
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    (Original post by alexgr97)
    Yeah Israel is totally at fault for existing. If only Israel didn't exist, then it would never have been attacked by a bunch of lunatic Arab armies and taken the land in the subsequent wars.
    What? If Israel had just stuck to its 1948 boundaries everything would now be fine.
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    But between 1948 and 1967 Gaza was relatively peaceful compared to recently. There is no reason to suppose that had Israel not annexed it it would not be effectively a normal Egyptian province today. By 'conflict' I mean more the intifada and related events.
    1948: 13k Palestinians killed, 7k Israelis
    1954 (IDF raids, fedayeen terrorists): 5k Palestinians killed, 1k Israelis
    1956 (Suez): 2k Palestinians killed, 300 Israelis

    Weird concept of "peaceful", especially as tanks and air strikes are not common from Israel today compared to back then in "peace"
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    I believe I am answering you respectfully and with full consideration. That is certainly my intention. But there is just so much in what you write that screams of a total unfamiliarity with this region and its situation and history. You write that
    (Original post by Zaki Hendrix)
    East Jerusalem is a holy area for muslims and without any consideration for this it was given to the Israeli community. The lack of thought and consideration started this.
    Every aspect of this is simply incorrect and/or poorly understood. 'East Jerusalem' in general is not holy for Muslims. The al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, contained within what Muslims call the Haram-al-Sharif, is considered the third holiest site in Islam. This is just a tiny part of 'East Jerusalem.' This location is also known as the Temple Mount, and was the location of the First and Second Jewish Temples long before the rise of Islam, and is the holiest site in Judaism. The Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif, the part of East Jerusalem which is holy to both Jews and Muslims, is currently governed by Muslim religious authorities. Furthermore, 'East Jerusalem' was not 'given to the Israeli community.' It was captured by Israel from Jordan in 1967, after it had been captured by Jordan in 1948.
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    What? If Israel had just stuck to its 1948 boundaries everything would now be fine.
    But then it got attacked and had to take the land to defend itself...unless you're suggesting you would have preferred Israel to keel over and let itself be destroyed?
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    What? If Israel had just stuck to its 1948 boundaries everything would now be fine.
    I'm sure there was a conflict in 1948 for territory which was not started by Israel? Please correct me if I'm wrong!
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    (Original post by SotonianOne)
    1910 Riots against Jews
    1920 Riots against Jews
    1930 Riots against Jews
    1940 Civil War
    1950 Civil War
    1960 Domestic terrorism
    1970 - 1990 roughly peaceful
    1990 Beginning of Hamas, repeated incursions onto Israeli territory
    2000 Continuation of Hamas, this time with more advanced guerilla warfare and tunnels
    2010 Continuation of Hamas, this time with more frequent air strikes (in the form of mortars and occasional rockets)

    I have learnt my history. Have you learn yours?

    All the land that Israel has gained over the past century was purely due to wars with Palestine apart from Sinai and Golan Heights.
    Riots arent wars :facepalm.
    1970 to 1990 mostly peaceful ?Clearly you havent learnt history if you think the 1973 yom kippur war and Israeli intrusion into Lebanon civil war was peaceful.
    Im struggling to find this 1940 and 1950 civil war,it seems it only happened inside your head.
    Your also forgetting the 1948 Israeli Arab conflict and all of Israel 's seized terrority,was taken from places cobtrolled by Arab states.
    For example,Jordan controlled the West bank before Israel seized it in the Six day war.
    You need to expand your mind outside Hamas,you didnt even mention PLO or any other group.
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    (Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
    I believe I am answering you respectfully and with full consideration. That is certainly my intention. But there is just so much in what you write that screams of a total unfamiliarity with this region and its situation and history. You write that Every aspect of this is simply incorrect and/or poorly understood. 'East Jerusalem' in general is not holy for Muslims. The al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, contained within what Muslims call the Haram-al-Sharif, is considered the third holiest site in Islam. This is just a tiny part of 'East Jerusalem.' This location is also known as the Temple Mount, and was the location of the First and Second Jewish Temples long before the rise of Islam, and is the holiest site in Judaism. The Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif, the part of East Jerusalem which is holy to both Jews and Muslims, is currently governed by Muslim religious authorities. Furthermore, 'East Jerusalem' was not 'given to the Israeli community.' It was captured by Israel from Jordan in 1967, after it had been captured by Jordan in 1948.
    If I wanted to go to my mosque in, let's say, London but i couldn't access that area at all, what would I do? I couldn't go in due to a lack of access. Third holiest place or not, a mosque is a holy place for muslims who have every right to enter. That is hard when it is in a country like Israel.
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    (Original post by alexgr97)
    But then it got attacked and had to take the land to defend itself...unless you're suggesting you would have preferred Israel to keel over and let itself be destroyed?
    Israel wasn't attacked in 1967. Yes, there was a crisis, but it could have been solved by diplomacy. At the very least Israel should have withdrawn from the West Bank and Gaza after it had conquered them.
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    (Original post by The Clockwork Apple)
    I'm sure there was a conflict in 1948 for territory which was not started by Israel? Please correct me if I'm wrong!
    Yes, there was - Israel was attacked and was therefore perfectly justified in defending itself and keeping the territory it conquered. That's why I said '1948 boundaries' as in boundaries after the 1948 war.
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    The driving problem is and always has been the colonisation of Palestine which was always the mission of Zionism. Policies of both sides can be criticised from both practical and moral standpoints, but these ultimately only shape the pattern of the conflict rather than drive it. The right of Palestinians to resist their colonisation and dispossession does not, of course, make every act that purports to be part of that resistance right.

    Ending a colonial policy does not mean reversing it; trying to do so would be both implausible and wrong. However it requires at least some sort of equality of agreement, and ideally redress as well (the latter most likely requiring a one-state solution, while the former not necessarily).
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    As long as they're both firing rockets at each other, I consider them both to be at blame.
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    (Original post by Zaki Hendrix)
    If I wanted to go to my mosque in, let's say, London but i couldn't access that area at all, what would I do? I couldn't go in due to a lack of access. Third holiest place or not, a mosque is a holy place for muslims who have every right to enter. That is hard when it is in a country like Israel.
    These sorts of statements are what keep giving me the impression that you don't understand the region or the issues. Muslims have free access to the Temple Mount (Haram al-Sharif) and the al-Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock which sit on it. They can wander in and out to their heart's content. It's Ramadan now and the Old City has been absolutely packed with Muslims on their way to and from prayers there. It's non-Muslims, especially Jews, who are restricted to visiting the area for just a few hours a week, are not allowed to enter the buildings at all, and are prohibited from doing anything that even looks like worship while they are there. Remember that this is the holiest place in the world for Jews, who had two Temples there before Islam existed, and Jews aren't even allowed to share it. This is in the centre of Jerusalem.
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    (Original post by Zaki Hendrix)
    Ok so this is a conflict which has been going on for well over 6 decades. What I want to know is who is to blame? My opinion at the moment is Israel is pushing things too far. Building on Palestinian land and breaking international laws. Oh and let's not forget the number of casualties in Palestine in comparison to Israel. Big difference.

    I'd like to know what your opinions are. Who agrees and who disagrees?
    It's really not that simple. You cannot simply put blame upon one side or the other. The history is very long, very tangled, and very complicated. Clearly you have your own opinion, and clearly you have just provided a very biased, very simplistic answer to your very simplistic question.
    But no doubt this will turn into another one of those threads where people on both sides bash the other, with a bit of anti-Semitism thrown in for good measure.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Israel are the oppressors. Just murdering and massacring the Arabs one by one and stealing their land
    Good.
 
 
 
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