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    (Original post by jit987)
    Not without the ball. Did you see him lately? (yesterday against Getafe)
    Erm yes he was, and I was watching him week in week out. I've seen Mascherano play ~5 times for Barca and he's exactly the same, running around trying to close down players.
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    (Original post by Deshi)
    Erm yes he was, and I was watching him week in week out. I've seen Mascherano play ~5 times for Barca and he's exactly the same, running around trying to close down players.
    ''Not without the ball'' was aimed at when he was playing for Liverpool. Of course, at Barca he goes around chasing for the ball.
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    I do not know who is arguing for and against Mascherano but he was very hard working at Liverpool, with or without the ball, likewise at Barcelona!
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    If Mascherano didn't work hard off the ball he'd be useless. It's what his game is about. The point is solid enough but the example isn't the best.

    Hard work can be coached...to an extent at least. A good man-manager can get it from a player not renowned for it, Mourinho and Eto comes to mind. Wenger doesn't seem able, or doesn't want, to do that. But the players whose game is defined primarily by their work, Kuyt and Park are good examples, you can't turn your average player into one of those. It needs some natural talent of having an extra lung or something, most players would be keeling over after half an hour if a manager made them do it. If this wasn't the case there would be an awful lot more distance runners.
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    I repeat myself ''working hard with/without the ball doesn't require natural talent.
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    (Original post by Louis.)
    If Mascherano didn't work hard off the ball he'd be useless. It's what his game is about. The point is solid enough but the example isn't the best.

    Hard work can be coached...to an extent at least. A good man-manager can get it from a player not renowned for it, Mourinho and Eto comes to mind. Wenger doesn't seem able, or doesn't want, to do that. But the players whose game is defined primarily by their work, Kuyt and Park are good examples, you can't turn your average player into one of those. It needs some natural talent of having an extra lung or something, most players would be keeling over after half an hour if a manager made them do it. If this wasn't the case there would be an awful lot more distance runners.
    You have taken the words out of my mouth.


    I would have used Tevez as an example though
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    (Original post by jit987)
    ''Not without the ball'' was aimed at when he was playing for Liverpool. Of course, at Barca he goes around chasing for the ball.
    Wtf are you on about mate? Just read Louis response. Mascherano worked very hard for Liverpool with and without the ball.
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    (Original post by jit987)
    I repeat myself ''working hard with/without the ball doesn't require natural talent.
    So why doesn't every player have the same work rate as Tevez and Kuyt?
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    So why doesn't every player have the same work rate as Tevez and Kuyt?
    Those players don't have the same desire maybe?
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    (Original post by jit987)
    I repeat myself ''working hard with/without the ball doesn't require natural talent.
    Talent is the wrong word, it does require fitness that some people have more than others. Certain players cannot just bomb around the pitch for 90mins, some players are more skillful others are fitter.

    Hard work isn't Arsenal's problem at the moment, your problems is lack of discipline and communication mainly in defence.
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    (Original post by jit987)
    I repeat myself ''working hard with/without the ball doesn't require natural talent.
    I don't agree at all. Many players may be able to run around for 90 mins chasing down, but can they do it and still have the mental resistance and awareness to be useful with the ball, and also to make successful tackles? The players that can do all of those things are rare beasts. We at Arsenal don't have any.
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    (Original post by milkytea)
    I don't agree at all. Many players may be able to run around for 90 mins chasing down, but can they do it and still have the mental resistance and awareness to be useful with the ball, and also to make successful tackles? The players that can do all of those things are rare beasts. We at Arsenal don't have any.
    Wilshere and well that's it.
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    Cesc can be pretty dogged and show a high work rate at times.
    I think it comes down to a combination of mental and physical traits. You have to have a determined personality and it must help if the manager or captain fires you up but you also have to have high stamina to pull it off for full games. I think some Arsenal players show flashes of the Kuyt style work ethic but it's rare.
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    Masch not a hard worker off the ball. Haha

    I've heard it all now.

    You lot are bloody useless anyway, serial bottlers.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    So why doesn't every player have the same work rate as Tevez and Kuyt?
    Players like Tevez, Kuyt, Park, etc.., have it in themselves to chase for the ball without their managers telling them. Others need to be told by their respective managers but it doesn't always work because most players don't have the discipline in every match they play. Just look at Adriano, Keita, Villa, they weren't the hard working players they are now when they were at their old clubs. It's Pep tactical mind that forced those players to work efficiently with and without the ball. Note, this was done during pre-season because during the first few La Liga games those new players were already customed to their new playing style and working hard as those other players who were used to it.(Messi/Xavi/Iniesta/Alves)

    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    Hard work isn't Arsenal's problem at the moment, your problems is lack of discipline and communication mainly in defence.
    Agree

    (Original post by milkytea)
    I don't agree at all. Many players may be able to run around for 90 mins chasing down, but can they do it and still have the mental resistance and awareness to be useful with the ball, and also to make successful tackles? The players that can do all of those things are rare beasts. We at Arsenal don't have any.
    Aren't the Barca players doing that?

    ----------------------------------------------
    All I want from Wenger during pre-season is that he needs to install some kind of discipline into the players and work on the teams tactics. Maybe a new formation? or have something like 4--2--4, where the 2 wing players defend deeper than the attacking players(when not in possession) but attack more than the attacking players(when in possession). The players who could do this is very debatable but also depends on stays at Arsenal.
    Just something new & different!, which can catch the opponents out!
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    (Original post by L18)
    Masch not a hard worker off the ball. Haha

    I've heard it all now.

    You lot are bloody useless anyway, serial bottlers.
    Bloody useless and bottlers are we? Must say a lot about Liverpool if we're 13 points above you with a game in hand.. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by CupidStunt)
    Bloody useless and bottlers are we? Must say a lot about Liverpool if we're 13 points above you with a game in hand.. :rolleyes:
    Says a lot about Roy Hodgson. Since kenny has come in, we are level with you on avg points per game.

    And don't get so emotional. There's nothing more I'd like to see than you win the league, but you've spectacularly exploded in two weeks.
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    Arsene has lost the plot. He needs to go.
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    (Original post by rajandkwameali)
    Arsene has lost the plot. He needs to go.
    You never had the plot, You need to leave our thread.
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    (Original post by rajandkwameali)
    Arsene has lost the plot. He needs to go.
    Didn't realise Arsene was in goal yesterday :rolleyes:
 
 
 
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