Do you consider UKIP good or bad? Watch

lerjj
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#741
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#741
(Original post by zippity.doodah)
no, numbnuts, I was saying that you're probably not working with any evidence as to how they aren't unreasonably considerate towards environmentalism
Please don't result to name-calling. I'm very thin skinned.

They can't be unreasonably considerate towards the environment, because that statement makes little to no logical sense. AGW and related issues are basically the main threats to humanity at the moment, so in order to being "unreasonably" you would have to reverse these threats whilst also causing greater harm than their initial threat.

I.e. they have to make it more likely that something else will kill off homo sapiens than AGW/food production/et cetera which is vastly unlikely.

I'm no longer talking on this thread, you can get the last word in if you want but don't ask questions please.
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Ebony19
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#742
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#742
baaaaad
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by lerjj)
Fixed that. Do you have a list of things which they block? I'm still calling cherry-picking here until I see stats.

Their MEPs are probably sexist just because they don't have many women at the moment. It doesn't mean that that's necessarily the party line, but that previously they had only a few MEPs who were all male and probably the same social class etc. it doesn't show that that's UKIP's main policy.

Having said that, getting feminists to vote anti-UKIP would be a step in the right direction. If they're going to have sexist policies, they ought to lose the corresponding 50% of the vote.
you can see how each MEP votes here: http://www.votewatch.eu/
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lerjj
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
you can see how each MEP votes here: http://www.votewatch.eu/
This is going to take a long time to go through. The only concesus that's immediately clear is a unanimous 'no' vote to the motion: "Should there be an obligatory quota of at least 40% (by 2020) of female representation in the management boards imposed on companies ?"

40% seems quite high tbh as a forced %. The only other clear trend is a high rate of absenteeism (never a good thing) and voting no rather than yes, probably 90% of the time.

I will have a look at this, but is there anywhere where the data is more easily broken up? There's quite a few UKIP MEPs, I need to look at a few ECR/other party MEPs for comparison and there's 2 pages of 'key votes' and 697 pages of 'all votes' (basically I'm only looking at the latter but it doesn't feel representative).
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geokinkladze
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#745
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(Original post by RobertsClan)
Cutting taxes but increasing public spending don't go together.
Therein lies another problem... the inaccurate conflagration of policies combined with illogical conclusions.

I haven't seen UKIP call for a general increase in public spending, neither have I seen a call for a general cut in the tax take. Additionally these aren't mutually exclusive and sometimes do go together.

On Question Time Piers Morgan was able to get away with the remark, unchallenged, that UKIP want to deport immigrants. That is why, to many people, the very notion that UKIP is the politics of fear just doesn't wash.
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geokinkladze
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#746
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#746
(Original post by _Chris)
I think she had been misinformed. TM would not lie and yes she is a good shout for next PM. We need a hard PM to differentiate, so I think that will be a good thing. Better than Dave.
She may well have been misinformed, either way it wasn't a lie but an exaggeration.
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geokinkladze
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#747
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#747
(Original post by hexagonalRod)
UKIP have argued for:

1) the ability for people to pay to jump waiting lists on the NHS - elitist access to healthcare ahead of those who cannot afford to. What would Jesus do?

In all honestly, I like Britain the way it is, and I'd rather not see it change, the way UKIP does.
And the way it is, is that people can pay to jump waiting lists on the NHS, right now. So I guess you agree with UKIP.
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geokinkladze
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#748
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#748
(Original post by lerjj)
Well that's ridiculous... UKIP's policies are pretty much extremist by conservative standards. They're proposing much more sudden changes than the other parties.
In a way, I'm grateful to live in a country where that kind of thinking occurs. The very fact that people have an exaggerated view about what extremist means is in some ways a positive thing.

Power to the people.
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geokinkladze
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#749
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#749
(Original post by TATP)
They are extremist in the sense they are diverting from the long standing status quo of the 3 main parties.
..and in a way I'm also disappointed that this kind of thinking occurs. The 3 main parties are in effect fighting over the centre ground so that UKIP are seen as extremist. If there was genuine choice over the spectrum UKIP wouldn't exist.
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geokinkladze
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#750
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#750
(Original post by lerjj)
although tbh, I only know that fascists are right wing, I'm not really sure what the word means... )
:eek:
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lerjj
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#751
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#751
(Original post by geokinkladze)
In a way, I'm grateful to live in a country where that kind of thinking occurs. The very fact that people have an exaggerated view about what extremist means is in some ways a positive thing.

Power to the people.
Cameron told the Mail: "Ukip have condemned themselves during this campaign with a succession of pretty unpleasant remarks. I think the whole country has heard enough to know what sort of party it is."

I wonder what he could have meant by that...
Unless you can come up with a better definition of extremism then I stand by every word that I said, they're the most right-wing party and propose to enact radical changes very fast. I call that extremism.

Yeah, extremism is worse in other areas of the world, but something can be extremist relative to the culture. And UKIP are pretty extreme for a British political party. It was also a throwaway remark, not sure why I wrote out so much to defend it.
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lerjj
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#752
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#752
(Original post by geokinkladze)
:eek:
Definition_of_Fascism

One common definition of fascism focuses on three concepts: the fascist negations of anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism; nationalist authoritarian goals of creating a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture; and a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence, and promotion of masculinity, youth and charismatic leadership. According to many scholars, fascism — especially once in power — has historically attacked communism, conservatism and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far right.

Roger Griffin describes fascism as "a genus of political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultranationalism". Griffin describes the ideology as having three core components: "(i) the rebirth myth, (ii) populist ultra-nationalism and (iii) the myth of decadence". Fascism is "a genuinely revolutionary, trans-class form of anti-liberal, and in the last analysis, anti-conservative nationalism" built on a complex range of theoretical and cultural influences. He distinguishes an inter-war period in which it manifested itself in elite-led but populist "armed party" politics opposing socialism and liberalism and promising radical politics to rescue the nation from decadence.

Robert Paxton says that fascism is "a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."


I now know what it means. I can't really remember why I brought it up to be honest. By this definition, UKIP are not fascist but are closer than many other parties. Especially by Griffin's definition, although that is admittedly the laxest of them all. But I definitely retract any suggestion that UKIP is actually fascist (I think I may have been defending someone else's comment about this, who later started calling them Nazis which was too far, but I can't remember exactly.)

Mainly just quoting this to try and appear less dumb really. I could have told you all of the above, I assumed that fascism had a close-cut definition like libertarianism or socialism etc. As it is, its just a nebulous word to describe aggressive right-wing dictatorships in the inter-war period.


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geokinkladze
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#753
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#753
(Original post by lerjj)
The only concesus that's immediately clear is a unanimous 'no' vote to the motion: "Should there be an obligatory quota of at least 40% (by 2020) of female representation in the management boards imposed on companies ?"
So they are against discrimination (in this sense the one labelled "positive").
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lerjj
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#754
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#754
(Original post by geokinkladze)
So they are against discrimination (in this sense the one labelled "positive").
Pretty much everyone from the UK seemed to be against that vote, really. The value of positive discrimination is it stops people from only hiring men out of prejudice and forces them to look at female candidates, but 40% is way too high a requirement imo.

Seeing as you've arrived though, I no longer have to play devil's advocate for UKIP (not that I was very much, because I got into an argument with TATP about the green party. They didn't vote for anything really at all, abstained from practically every vote and voted against most equality issues like about FGM. I would argue that they're not the people I would want on a EU parliament. I want people who will turn up to votes, represent my wishes and consider voting in favour as well as against. I can't see any logical reason for all the 'no' votes except an attitude problem.
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geokinkladze
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#755
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#755
(Original post by lerjj)
a succession of pretty unpleasant remarks....Unless you can come up with a better definition of extremism then I stand by every word that I said.
Like I said if that is extreme then I'm glad to live in the UK. The flip side is that we don't get genuine choice across the spectrum.

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lerjj
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#756
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#756
(Original post by geokinkladze)
Like I said if that is extreme then I'm glad to live in the UK. The flip side is that we don't get genuine choice across the spectrum.

I'm not really sure how a democracy would be ordered to get a full choice. We have properly extremist parties in the BNP, SNP and we (might) have a fledgling communist party maybe? They just don't get any votes before first past the post concentrates attention on a few main parties. It's the same everywhere, America has got a more polarized two-party system than us, Australia has enforced voting but still has a two-party system. Everyone except Germany, but they've got proportional representation which doesn't always work very well (e.g. Germany 85 years ago...)

I think this way is better, voter pressure ought to be sufficient to move the centre ground if there is a real demand, otherwise true extremism is dangerous (I still think UKIP are edging towards dangerous, but in an admittedly less spectacular way than Lenin or Franco)
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InnerTemple
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#757
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#757
UKIP is bad for the UK. End of.

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4TSR
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#758
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#758
of course they are bad.
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Sandra1
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#759
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#759
Next year elections UKIP are not going to gain any youngsters (18-21) votes...
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RobertsClan
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#760
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#760
(Original post by geokinkladze)
Therein lies another problem... the inaccurate conflagration of policies combined with illogical conclusions.

I haven't seen UKIP call for a general increase in public spending, neither have I seen a call for a general cut in the tax take. Additionally these aren't mutually exclusive and sometimes do go together.

On Question Time Piers Morgan was able to get away with the remark, unchallenged, that UKIP want to deport immigrants. That is why, to many people, the very notion that UKIP is the politics of fear just doesn't wash.
They have pledged to increase the number of police officers that would require an increase in public spending

They have also pledged to cut the highest rate of tax last time I checked that would be classed as a tax cut.

Both of these things have been mentioned by Nigel Farage on TV a number of times.


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