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    (Original post by well in the dark)
    Actually, I see an entirely separate irony that you apparently do not.

    You do not seem to be aware that Zionism =/= Judaism.

    I am aware of 'blood libel', and also of 'metzitzah' which coincides closely with it.

    I am also aware of condemnation of Zionism increasingly being mistaken, even deliberately at times, for condemnation of Judaism, and anti-Semitism wrongly cited.

    It beggars belief that you genuinely entertain the idea that I was appealing to that notion when I referred to the current bloodbath Israel is perpetrating in Gaza, and also that you honestly think that that notion has 'seeped into the subconscious of people'. It can only be a singularly deluded person who would give that latter idea any semblance of serious consideration.
    I am not fazed by your diabolical and absurd claim that I have appealed an age-old anti-Semitic notion insidiously or unconsciously. Israel is committing bloody atrocities in Gaza, and I will not downplay that by being careful not to refer to the blood that is being shed daily simply to appease any whoever who happens to see something in it that rests on illogical and unreasonable assumptions.
    There's no point in me trying to prove it to you now because you wouldn't believe me. If you take any notice of international conflicts though, and if you follow articles/blogs/forum posts surrounding these wars, then all I ask is that you pay close attention to the language that is used to describe the Israel-Palestine conflict and then compare it to any other conflict involving the mass loss of civilian life (e.g. Iraq invasion, Afghanistan invasion, Sunni-Shia violence, Syrian civil war, Russia-Chechnya, Russia-Georgia, etc). You will find that phrases like "bloodthirsty" and "bloodletting" will recur much more often for Israel-Palestine than they do in the other conflicts involving similar or higher numbers of civilian casualties. This is of course no coincidence. The subtleties of language betray the author's feelings (conscious or subconscious).

    Just something to keep in mind...
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    (Original post by well in the dark)
    You were not a contemporary with those times, so you would do well to cite historical evidence for the nonsensical,.
    Sorry, they killed 8 Jewish villagers

    a Shiite Arab militia, accompanied by Bedouin from a nearby village, attacked the Jewish agricultural locality of Tel Hai. In the aftermath of the battle eight Jews and five Arabs were killed. Joseph Trumpeldor, the commander of Jewish defenders of Tel Hai, was shot in the hand and stomach, and died while being evacuated to Kfar Giladi that evening. Tel Hai was eventually abandoned by the Jews and burned by the Arab militia.

    (Original post by getfunky!)
    The state should have not been created in the first place, it should have remained a one state with equal rights of all citizens regardless of faith and/or heritage.
    It was not a state. The 'palestinians' had never in their history had a state, country or territory.

    The first time in history that 'palestinians' have governed themselves, is when Israel gave them autonomy in 1993.

    (Original post by AutVinceriAutMori)
    Please don't patronise me, the whole "calm down, dear" **** didn't work for Cameron and it certainly doesn't work for you.
    Secondly, both children in Malaysian plane and children dying in Syria were not forgotten or passed over as "collateral damage". Their death was rightfully called a massive tragedy which it is. Both Syrian government and ISIS militants and pro- Russian rebels in Ukraine, suspected of shooting down the plane were condemned by media, senior Western politicians and people all over social media.
    Yet no street demonstrations. No boycott campaigns.

    200,000 dead in Syria, where was 'stop the war coalition' ? nowhere to be seen.

    The day Israel starts retaliating to rockets, 'stop the war' coalition suddenly crawl back out from under their rock.


    (Original post by AutVinceriAutMori)
    - collective punishment and bombardment of Palestinians, the disproportionate retribution against them by IDF,
    There is no such thing as "disproportion" in conflict. In fact, the whole point of conflict is to inflict a disproportionate amount of force on your enemy to gain victory.

    British troops have lost 453 men in Afghanistan. How many Afghans do you think have been killed?

    NATO (including British troops) are using Apache attack helicopters, drones, AC-130's against cave-dwelling Taliban with AK47's an RPG's - is that disproportionate?

    In response to V2 rockets fired by Germany, the British replied with fire-bombing whole German cities like Dresden, killing tens of thousands. Was that disproportionate?

    Parroting the media's use of "disproportion" only leads you to make a fool of yourself.

    No other country is accused of "disproportionate" force.

    Have you ever heard it mentioned when we went into Iraq? did the BBC say how disproportionate it was that Iraqi militia were being hit with drones?



    Oh and Arab conquests happened centuries ago? my dear, they're still ongoing. Ask Africa how they're getting on.

    Sudan where the Arab Muslims butchered 250,000 indigenous blacks in Darfur.
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    (Original post by Ashnard)
    There's no point in me trying to prove it to you now because you wouldn't believe me. If you take any notice of international conflicts though, and if you follow articles/blogs/forum posts surrounding these wars, then all I ask is that you pay close attention to the language that is used to describe the Israel-Palestine conflict and then compare it to any other conflict involving the mass loss of civilian life (e.g. Iraq invasion, Afghanistan invasion, Sunni-Shia violence, Syrian civil war, Russia-Chechnya, Russia-Georgia, etc). You will find that phrases like "bloodthirsty" and "bloodletting" will recur much more often for Israel-Palestine than they do in the other conflicts involving similar or higher numbers of civilian casualties. This is of course no coincidence. The subtleties of language betray the author's feelings (conscious or subconscious).

    Just something to keep in mind...
    Or perhaps you will not attempt to prove your non-point not because 'I won't believe you' but because you have nothing logical going for your argument. All you can cling to for assurance is a whimsical gut feeling. I have an interest in many conflicts, and have read extensively of many, and I certainly have not come across what you say you noticed. Why, nobody even on this thread refers to Israel's 'bloodthirstiness' bar me. If you have tangible evidence then by all means bring that up; until you do so, I will dismiss your claim as utterly irrelevant, deliberately misleading hokum.
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    (Original post by AutVinceriAutMori)
    Please don't patronise me, the whole "calm down, dear" **** didn't work for Cameron and it certainly doesn't work for you.
    Secondly, both children in Malaysian plane and children dying in Syria were not forgotten or passed over as "collateral damage". Their death was rightfully called a massive tragedy which it is. Both Syrian government and ISIS militants and pro- Russian rebels in Ukraine, suspected of shooting down the plane were condemned by media, senior Western politicians and people all over social media.
    But this thread is specifically about Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and if don't see how your examples are anything but a distraction from the actual point being discussed- collective punishment and bombardment of Palestinians, the disproportionate retribution against them by IDF, heavy losses of life, bombing of beaches, hospitals, schools. Yes, children die in the conflict, but those who target children and kill them indiscriminately should not be applauded and defended.
    As to your third point, are you ****ing kidding me? The Arab conquests happened centuries ago, would you also complain about Crusades, about Roman conquests of Britain, about European colonisation of both Americas and Australia?
    The issue of Palestine and Israel is far more recent and ongoing, which is why it's discussed here. Arab conquests from times gone by belong in the history books, not were the Arabs only nation to have undertaken conquests. We are talking about modern days, when Russian annexation of Crimea is called a crime and Russia is sanctioned and condemned by the Western media all over, and yet Israeli occupation of West Bank and blockade and bombardment of Gaza is aided by the same people.
    hear hear, except for the highlighted points which are slightly pretentious in that the assumption is being made, especially with respects to MH17, that the actions were intentional and there is a clear bias in the media institutions in the first place (and thus, by extension, most of the western population).

    (Original post by Chindits)
    In response to V2 rockets from Germany, the British fire bombed whole German cities killing tens of thousands of civilians.
    I know your history and general knowledge is pretty bad, but dayum, didn't realise you were this bad. So, you think the bombing of German cities only started in 1944? You will find that the Germans started their strategic bombing campaign as soon as they declared war against Poland, and as per thier 31 August 1939 declaration, the British and French started theirs on 3/9/39, albeit just military targets in both cases.
    The strategic bombing of necessary war infrastructure which includes factory complexes where people are probably still working, and in some cases the actual civilian accommodation itself, started on 14 May 1940 when the Germans bombed Rotterdam, on the 15th Britain changed its stance and started bombing the Ruhr area, specifically civilian industrial that aided the German war effort.

    Also, Tu Quoque
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    (Original post by getfunky!)
    When Palestinian Arabs have been living there already for centuries, they have just as much claim to the land. .
    arabs migrated to palestine in the same way european jews did so, islam and arabs are less native to the region than judaism. both of that is not as relevant as the fact that both muslims and jews have their holy lands, islam was mecca ( and the british gave muslims saudi arabia) and jews had 'judea' and israel'

    (Original post by getfunky!)
    I've read through quite a few of your posts on this thread:
    Please stop misusing "islamic/Islamist", as Islam is represented by a large variety of nations/ethnicities, as well as holding broadly different views. .
    islam is simply represented by muslims interpretation of scripture . islamists are people that use islamic rhetoric as a basis for determining political issues.


    (Original post by getfunky!)
    One group of Muslims cannot speak for all, and I'll kindly suggest that you keep your posts focused on the topic of the thread and do not deviate to other topics in the hope of gaining interest on them, this is not the thread for them. .
    the principle of islamists manipulating muslims to make political capital is a worldwide trend, whether it be in palestine, chechnya or kashmir. palestine is portrayed by islamists tho as the biggest issue for muslims worldwide. you say that "One group of Muslims cannot speak for all," but in reality, a small group of vocal islamists manipulate the entire muslim world to believe palestine is their most important issue


    (Original post by getfunky!)
    The Palestinians would have no trouble accepting a two state solution at them moment as they democratically elected the Palestinian Authority which seeks to recognise Israel under the 1967 borders, calling for a two-state solution and an end to building settlement.
    the borders you speak of were essentially unworkable, to have the jews most holy city, jerusalem, surrounded by and only accesable through an arab state is idiotic, would muslims accept the city of mecca to be surrounded by a jewsih controlled state. the 47 UN borders were never universally accepted which was part of the problem , the other was that the arabs then decided to wipe israel off the map militarily, and sufferred humiliating defeat ( and subsequent loss of territory).
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    (Original post by well in the dark)

    You are excellent evidence that Zionism is flourishing; its sole aim, currently, is to wipe out any sign of Palestinian life, culture, heritage and history.
    Their culture, heritage and history is Arab. There is no 'palestinain' history - hence why nothing exists that is 'palestinain'. No artefacts like coins or clay pots, no ancient ruins, no kings or previous leaders.

    Arafat was their first leader. He was Egyptian.

    Not much of a rich history when your first leader appears in the 60's and is Egyptian.

    Israel is one of the most archaeologically excavated lands in the world. There are international dig teams working round the clock.

    To date, not a single item relating to a 'palestinian' history has been found.

    Judea and Samaria (west bank) are full of Jewish history. Every inch of land is covered with Jewish artefacts and ruins. Not to mentions tombs.

    The 'palestinians' of course have been doing their utmost to destroy them


    Here they are destroying Joseph's tomb after Israel agreed to let 'palestinain' police guard it.

    Oh, they also gunned down the Rabbi who used to look after the tomb.

    Nice people these 'palestinians' real peaceful. :rolleyes:

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    (Original post by Chindits)
    x
    Haha, your racism against Arabs is thinly veiled. You're an obvious troll.
    Ignoring facts and persisting doggedly in hanging onto irrelevant tripe will not get you anywhere, although I doubt you've a mind at getting anywhere in this case.
    'Arabs killed 8 Jewish villagers' - looks to me from your source that the villages killed 5 Arabs, not Arabs Jews.
    Anyway not replying to you now until you get an actual case, as opposed to pertinaciously disgorge blatant racism and present made-up figures in support for that, and in pale substitution for evidence
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I only go half way through before giving up continuing, it seems you think that extremists are reflective of all member of a particular group, in which case, how can anybody follow any ideology?
    no i your level of understanding is poor - i explained that islamists have ultimate authority on political matters in the islamic world, because they apply islamic principles to political matters ie 'that levant should be an islamic zone and cannot be governed by jews'. if you claim to be a muslim but disagree with that principle then you would have others muslims questioning your loyalty to your faith. i know this because i have seen it. i doubt you have any idea what islamist doctrine is.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    no i your level of understanding is poor - i explained that islamists have ultimate authority on political matters in the islamic world, because they apply islamic principles to political matters ie 'that levant should be an islamic zone and cannot be governed by jews'. if you claim to be a muslim but disagree with that principle then you would have others muslims questioning your loyalty to your faith. i know this because i have seen it. i doubt you have any idea what islamist doctrine is.
    But, given that if a religions doctrine becomes static it will likely lead to the death of that religion, surely the ones having thier loyalty questions should be the ones maintaining the old, archaic, unpopular in modern society doctrines?
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Their culture, heritage and history is Arab. There is no 'palestinain' history - hence why nothing exists that is 'palestinain'. No artefacts like coins or clay pots, no ancient ruins, no kings or previous leaders.

    Arafat was their first leader. He was Egyptian.

    Not much of a rich history when your first leader appears in the 60's and is Egyptian.

    Israel is one of the most archaeologically excavated lands in the world. There are international dig teams working round the clock.

    To date, not a single item relating to a 'palestinian' history has been found.

    Judea and Samaria (west bank) are full of Jewish history. Every inch of land is covered with Jewish artefacts and ruins. Not to mentions tombs.

    The 'palestinians' of course have been doing their utmost to destroy them


    Here they are destroying Joseph's tomb after Israel agreed to let 'palestinain' police guard it.

    Oh, they also gunned down the Rabbi who used to look after the tomb.

    Nice people these 'palestinians' real peaceful. :rolleyes:
    Simply because you seem unaware of a Palestinian culture does not mean it doesn't exist, and it certainly puts you in a miserable position to dictate what Palestinian culture is meant to be. Arabs span two continents and their culture is not one, it varies considerably.
    Who exactly said that Arafat was their first leader? You did. Again, with no evidence. You're just disgorging absolute guff - Zionist propaganda - with no evidence in sight.
    Jewish and Arabs are not to be compared if you're going to compare historical sites; it is Jewish and Muslim, and Jewish history is Muslim history. There are Islamic sites of historical interest that were sabotaged by Zionists, such as the tomb of Abraham. Muslims have no interest in destroying Joseph's tomb, as he was their prophet too.
    You really do have no clue. Mind getting an education? Not a Zionist education either.
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    (Original post by AutVinceriAutMori)
    What the actual **** "Arabia"? Some sort of an enclosed zone where Arabs are allowed to live? Anywhere else they have no claim to, like for instance, Egypt, which is geographically in North Africa, and yet is home to many Arabs. I can only assume you're trolling.
    I agree, but surely the same principle applies to the Jews? I.e. the Jews are allowed to live in Israel.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I agree, but surely the same principle applies to the Jews? I.e. the Jews are allowed to live in Israel.
    No not if the Palestinians still hold the documents and deeds to the land and property the filthy zionists are squatting on, then no, which means that over 60% of the Jews need to leave and return the stolen land to the rights owners or their descendants. The rights of return is non negotiable for its a rights not a God damn favour which the jew can bestow.
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    (Original post by moali125)
    Yes, you're right. I'm a 'NOW' person, who always had a little bit more sympathy towards Palestine because I can ethnically relate to them more. The environment I've been around has sculpted my viewpoint.

    In some ways I admire Israel; the technology, advancement and democracy that you have mentioned. But, the atrocities committed by them, towards Palestinians indigenous to the land, make those aspects of the country easy to overlook - like anything good.

    I don't like how Jews, however, not indigenous to the land make a sudden holy claim for it, and use this as a righteous excuse to move others off it. Yes, Palestine has been home to many indigenous Jews - and they completely deserve to remain in their homeland, much like any Arab who has settled there previously. But, these people shouldn't face a risk of losing their homes and being displaced for recent migrants, essentially. Faith is a non-issue here; although the likes of Islamists and Orthodox Extremist views challenge that. Today, Israel enjoys being an increasingly secular nation, so I dislike its continual selective reference to biblical text as a rite of passage (some Israelis do this, nothing official - that I know of).

    Hamas lost most its Iranian support when Hamas had supported the mainly Sunni uprisers in Syria, who were against the Shia Al-Asaad family. Yes, I don't like politics and religion together, and here it is in action. Irani proxy? At this stage, I doubt it. Although I know previous Iranian support for anything Palestinian has been nothing-but-fervent. Anything to help the victims of the enemy of the state, right? I still think Hamas are launching the rockets for attention, as they can't do any serious damage with them. The attention comes from the Israeli response, like you said. So, it is in the hands of Israel to decide how much of the spotlight Gaza get.

    Culture, any collaboration, normal lives and more are put on halt when war continues. The two simply need to stop and sort things out. I'm sure that's something we can both agree on.

    Again, appreciate the responses and the healthy rebuttal you have provided me. I have certainly come from our discussion the wiser. Take care.
    I think "atrocities" is perhaps over egging things a bit.

    First of all you should concede that not a single Gazan would be killed if they did not fire rockets or send their murderers out to kill Israeli boys in the West Bank.

    And before you mention the blockade - first of all there was no blockade in place between 2005 and 2007. Yet the rockets kept coming.

    The migrant issue is a non-starter. Both 'palestinians' and Jews were migrants into the region of 'palestine'. Remember that Jews bought a lot of land and indeed some of that land is now in the possession of 'palestinians' despite the fact it was bought by Jews.

    I think it's time for 'palestinains' to stop being professional refugees. The world has seen far greater refugee problems and in more recent times too.

    It has happened throughout history and people have resolved their situation. Remember Israel took in 900,000 refugees.


    Anyway, appreciate your comments.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    i was actually talking to you, but i accpet that you like many on here have a miniscule amount of knowledge of history, the background to this issue and, essentially the bigger picture.
    Sadly, you are one of those many idiots who think they know everything but in fact you are just another frog in the well & you have zero logical sense. After reading couple of BS news articles you think that you were there when all major and minor historical events were happening.
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    (Original post by layahudi)
    No not if the Palestinians still hold the documents and deeds to the land and property the filthy zionists are squatting on, then no, which means that over 60% of the Jews need to leave and return the stolen land to the rights owners or their descendants. The rights of return is non negotiable for its a rights not a God damn favour which the jew can bestow.
    Does that mean that the Jews have a right to go over to Libya, Iraq and Germany and "re-gain" their land?

    Or does it mean that the Germans have a right to go over to Poland and reclaim land there?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Does that mean that the Jews have a right to go over to Libya, Iraq and Germany and "re-gain" their land?

    Or does it mean that the Germans have a right to go over to Poland and reclaim land there?
    If Jews have the documentation or other evidence to prove it, then in one word Yes, but is it for the Palestinians to guarantee that, no. In fact why Germany didn't have land confiscated post WW2 to be given to Jews I will never understand.]]I think you are getting confused with state and private land.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I agree, but surely the same principle applies to the Jews? I.e. the Jews are allowed to live in Israel.
    Well, there is a clear difference between Jews being allowed to live Israel and illegal settlements that extends beyond the borders of Israel according to UN. Is Israel actively trying to reach a consensus with Palestinians?
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    (Original post by layahudi)
    If Jews have the documentation or other evidence to prove it, then in one word Yes, but is it for the Palestinians to guarantee that, no. In fact why Germany didn't have land confiscated post WW2 to be given to Jews I will never understand.]]I think you are getting confused with state and private land.
    I am talking about the forced deportation of millions of Germans out of Poland after WW2, and the pogroms against Jews in North Africa around the same time, as well as the Holocaust.

    After 70 years, title deeds expire. It is best to move on and look to the future, not the distant past. Build a vibrant, prosperous and free country in Palestine, to live in peace alongside Israel.
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    (Original post by AutVinceriAutMori)
    Well, there is a clear difference between Jews being allowed to live Israel and illegal settlements that extends beyond the borders of Israel according to UN. Is Israel actively trying to reach a consensus with Palestinians?
    I oppose settlement expansion, but the current crisis has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I am talking about the forced deportation of millions of Germans out of Poland after WW2, and the pogroms against Jews in North Africa around the same time.

    After 70 years, title deeds expire. It is best to move on and look to the future, not the distant past. Build a vibrant, prosperous and free country in Palestine, to live in peace alongside Israel.
    They only 'expire' if you don't lay a claim to it in that period, make no mistake Palestinians will always lay claim to their rightful land and property. The jews will never get away with this, the Palestinians will never forget nor forgive the jew thieving, not with bombs not with genocide not with time, today's orphans will be tomorrows freedom fighters, The jews must be made to pay for this or they will never learn.
 
 
 
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