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    (Original post by JamesR12)
    It's not down to just the coaching. If you look at someone like Sakho, born and raised to defend against the ball - he always moves to the ball. Someone like Skrtel, he's been raised and it's ingrained in his head to defend the space. So he'll always, always back off and protect the area closer to the goal rather than move to the ball and risk being beaten. It's such a **** habit and Skrtel basically always retreats when someone is running at him with the ball. It's just silly and cowardly and means he'll never, ever be a good enough centre back.

    Lucas is slow and laborious and not physically good enough to be a competent DM. He gets beaten so, so easily. Ings was dribbling rings around him and Ings is hardly of Messi's physique.

    The funny thing is it is these two exact people who were annihilated by (I think Bentenke too in December 2012) but most notably Jay ****ing Rodriguez who ran unopposed from the halfway line to score against us. Not a player challenged him until he shot from inside our box and the two who should have done were Lucas and Skrtel. The hilarious thing is that Jay Rodriguez did this against us in March 2013 - we're now two years on and it's the same two ****e players who are the spine of our defence.

    Lucas has improved results in the short term but not to the level that we aspire to. Skrtel has always been dismal. It pains me so much to watch both of them.
    Agree with this but Lucas is the only competant DM we have, he can atleast read the situation and provide some protection to our defence, Gerrard cannot do that. The problem is both our CM's are not mobile and energetic enough, which was more the reason we got dominated in midfield than the actual formation itself.

    We looked much more effective against Arsenal as they played right into our hands, they played from the back and so we pressed the **** out of them, their CM's weren't exactly physically dominant so they couldn't win the aerial duels and got bullied off the ball. Burnley however had physically dominant CM's, they just played the long ball so we couldn't press and Gerrard and Lucas didn't have the legs to keep up. It didn't help that we were incredibly sloppy and kept giving the ball away.
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    Cahill is similar to Skrtel in that respect, if you have decent enough protection for the defence it's not a problem. Don't think Skrtel is to blame but Lucas and Gerrard.
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    (Original post by JamesR12)
    It's not down to just the coaching. If you look at someone like Sakho, born and raised to defend against the ball - he always moves to the ball. Someone like Skrtel, he's been raised and it's ingrained in his head to defend the space. So he'll always, always back off and protect the area closer to the goal rather than move to the ball and risk being beaten. It's such a **** habit and Skrtel basically always retreats when someone is running at him with the ball. It's just silly and cowardly and means he'll never, ever be a good enough centre back.

    Lucas is slow and laborious and not physically good enough to be a competent DM. He gets beaten so, so easily. Ings was dribbling rings around him and Ings is hardly of Messi's physique.

    The funny thing is it is these two exact people who were annihilated by (I think Bentenke too in December 2012) but most notably Jay ****ing Rodriguez who ran unopposed from the halfway line to score against us. Not a player challenged him until he shot from inside our box and the two who should have done were Lucas and Skrtel. The hilarious thing is that Jay Rodriguez did this against us in March 2013 - we're now two years on and it's the same two ****e players who are the spine of our defence.

    Lucas has improved results in the short term but not to the level that we aspire to. Skrtel has always been dismal. It pains me so much to watch both of them.
    I agree Lucas is a short term improvement but we haven't been able to attract high caliber players/don't want to pay over the odds for them. I think Gerrard is a big part of the problem also because he can't keep up and press teams in the middle of the park. This just puts extra pressure onto our defence and exposes them unnecessarily. I'd like to see a Can-Lucas partnership in the midfield, I think that'll improve things more since Can is able to press and has far more energy than Gerrard. Wrt to Skrtel the problem is we brought in Lovren but he hasn't played well at all, selling Agger in the summer now seems like a really bad decision. Do you think Lovren can step up and create a successful partnership with Sakho? Sakho has done really well in the past two games, he so assured when he goes into tackling and can play out from the back. I hope he can just stay fit from now on and that he carries on playing well.
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    (Original post by samir12)
    Agree with this but Lucas is the only competant DM we have, he can atleast read the situation and provide some protection to our defence, Gerrard cannot do that. The problem is both our CM's are not mobile and energetic enough, which was more the reason we got dominated in midfield than the actual formation itself.

    We looked much more effective against Arsenal as they played right into our hands, they played from the back and so we pressed the **** out of them, their CM's weren't exactly physically dominant so they couldn't win the aerial duels and got bullied off the ball. Burnley however had physically dominant CM's, they just played the long ball so we couldn't press and Gerrard and Lucas didn't have the legs to keep up. It didn't help that we were incredibly sloppy and kept giving the ball away.
    I don't think Lucas is competent. He can read the game but a DM's role is to cut out attacks - when someone is running at Lucas 90% of the time all they have to do is sidestep him. He's doing a good enough job right now - he's lifted us from relegation contenders to a team that's probably good enough for 6th or so. And that's what his level is. 6th or so.

    Yeah the sloppiness is grating. Markovic, Sterling, Coutinho are just too erratic on the ball for any kind of decent countering or controlling the ball. They're all young and they'll improve but when your 'attacking' players are not working in that sense, how do you expect the likes of Lucas or Henderson to work. We got lucky, it was a clever flick and genius from Sterling. But it was about time that Coutinho started producing something so you would say that over the course of the season we probably did deserve some output from him and therefore this win.
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    (Original post by The.Joker)
    I agree Lucas is a short term improvement but we haven't been able to attract high caliber players/don't want to pay over the odds for them. I think Gerrard is a big part of the problem also because he can't keep up and press teams in the middle of the park. This just puts extra pressure onto our defence and exposes them unnecessarily. I'd like to see a Can-Lucas partnership in the midfield, I think that'll improve things more since Can is able to press and has far more energy than Gerrard. Wrt to Skrtel the problem is we brought in Lovren but he hasn't played well at all, selling Agger in the summer now seems like a really bad decision. Do you think Lovren can step up and create a successful partnership with Sakho? Sakho has done really well in the past two games, he so assured when he goes into tackling and can play out from the back. I hope he can just stay fit from now on and that he carries on playing well.
    I think the main issue is that we've not gone after high calibre - we've not gone after any calibre. We've made just one midfield signing since Allen in Rodgers' first window. 5 windows and all we have to show for it is Allen - who's a top 4 squad player in the right system, and Can who's been somewhat ludicrously underplayed. Rodgers needs to address the fact that Gerrard can not be a permanent fixture in our midfield and neither can Lucas and neither can Allen. Rodgers just doesn't see our midfield as a problem - he didn't see Lucas-Gerrard as an issue last season when we were stuttering along at a top 4 pace in the first half of the year (as soon as we started playing with one of them in midfield we hit title-contending form). Both players have regressed since then and yet we're still stuck with them as our midfield duo.

    I would defend the selling of Agger. He was a good ball player but a mediocre defender and one whose time at the club was naturally ending. I advocate the decision completely. The Lovren signing has failed spectacularly but where Rodgers has ****ed up himself is Sakho being underplayed until now and the continued persistence with Skrtel - Lovren for far too long a period of time. The truth about Sakho is that he is an immense defender. Thoroughbred, international calibre defender. In France he starts above Koscielny and they conceded one goal with him on the pitch at the WC, a set piece which was the fault of Varane (in the quarter, Koscielny came on for 20 minutes and they immediately conceded 3 haha). He has all the physical attributes required and he's a natural leader. He's not perfect but he's the best defender at our club by a country mile. What he needs is a partner - Skrtel is not it, and never will be. Lovren (of last season) and Sakho have a similar style of play and that was the intended pairing (in most people's minds anyway) when Lovren was signed. I can't tell you what's gone wrong with Lovren but I doubt we'll see a resurgence this year, he looks a broken man. Sakho - Toure should be our CB partnership, based on form, let alone everything else.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    Cahill is similar to Skrtel in that respect, if you have decent enough protection for the defence it's not a problem. Don't think Skrtel is to blame but Lucas and Gerrard.
    No he's not.

    Skrtel backs off, and backs off, and backs off, until the attacker has a free shot at goal from 10 yards out, and it's hard to miss from that range. He's nowhere near the standard of defender that Cahill is. He's mediocre. He gets portrayed as this Vidic type hard man and in reality he gets bullied by the likes of Carlton ****ing Cole. He's mediocre in every sense.
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    Wonder what the mystery injury was for B.Jones? Mignolet looks shaky as ever which is not a good sign.
    Markovic was really bad at LB, continuously gave the ball away and a lot of their attacks came down that flank. Sakho did well which was a saving grace.

    Gerrard was anonymous at best, Lucas was loose with his passing. There was no energy, desire or hunt for the ball. Looks completely lethargic like it was a pre-season friendly. Sterling showed his problem of being upfront - no presence or height so can't win the ball but his pace can get him through.

    Just such an all round bad performance topped off with Rodgers being pretty bad too. Didn't change the system which was getting continuously bullied and outplayed by Burnley. Amazed they didn't score like 10 goals!
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    We're crap tbh.
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    (Original post by Pn94)
    We're crap tbh.
    And I don't think there are any easy fixes. Can you name one position that you could say you're happy with in our squad?
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    And I don't think there are any easy fixes. Can you name one position that you could say you're happy with in our squad?
    GK

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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Last season we had Sturridge and Suarez pressing the CBs and fullbacks (and DMs at times) and then Henderson supported that to press the DM and higher. This season and going forward, we’re going to be playing with one striker more often so when Sturridge plays, you want another player to help the pressing high up the pitch. Balotelli/Lambert aren’t going to give you that and Borini will be gone in January. Having a sole striker try to press their back 5 is a waste of his energy and if you stop doing that, you’re no longer playing Rodgers’ preferred style of play.

    Henderson has the energy and tenacity to win the ball high up the pitch and then he can play the simple pass to Sturridge to score. I think Sterling can do this role too but at the moment you need to make the most out of the players you have and Sterling is our best winger. We’d be trying to play the game 10-20 yards higher than we currently are so Henderson would remain involved with the game.

    That’s a ridiculous argument. Players develop over time. Gerrard wasn’t a goal scorer in his younger days and equally in more recent times we’ve seen players like Bale and Ramsey rapidly change from type to goal scorers. Gerrard is a decade older than Henderson. In the 02/03, Gerrard scored 7 in 54 games and in 03/04 he scored 6 in 47. Those figures are actually worse than Henderson’s record in 12/13 and 13/14 (I’ve compared like for like ages/years).

    So you’re saying that Henderson isn’t statistically proven and then using your own judgment on his ability? Is that any less contradictory than the parts of my post you’ve taken?

    That makes little sense since we’ve seen Henderson play plenty of different roles under Rodgers from CM, RM to RWB to further forward. Yes I agree that Gerrard was always great and shooting from deep but how many long range efforts to we take now? Under Rodgers we’re generally closer to the opposition goal than the counterattacking/direct football we played under Rafa with Torres/Gerrard combo. I’m not asking Henderson to be taking long range shots but his runs from deep are highlighted as a strong point and I think his goal scoring numbers would improve if he was playing closer to goal.

    I don't see what is ridiculous about comparing a player to a 23 year old Steven Gerrard.
    The stuff you said about Sterling was off topic and incorrect, so I just deleted it. Nothing you said about the pressing makes sense in the first para, and your post in large parts doesn't seem to address what I said, just some general repetition.

    The way the you phrase the idea that Henderson can win the ball back and 'then he can play the simple pass to Sturridge to score' just makes me laugh. Because pressing leads to that and it will always be as easy as that hahaha. And then your assessment that playing Henderson behind the striker is the only solution in order to get some pressing is wrong, the idea that we NEED to press is wrong, the idea that we already do press is wrong, and the idea that Rodgers wants to press is probably wrong as well, because we're now two and a half years in and we've never looked like a proper pressing team.

    Bale and Ramsey were both youth prodigies. Absolute monsters at youth level, who showed technique and 'magic' in a way that Henderson never has - and their 'overnight' (in actuality over a period of time) transformations were more a result unlocking the vast, already seen potential in them rather than getting quality levels out of them that never existed, as would have to be done with Henderson. Has Henderson ever shown something similar, other than fat Steve Bruce saying some vague overhyped bull in order to inflate his price tag? The idea that Henderson can do a Ramsey-esque elevation into a top quality goalscorer is just silly, because Ramsey at youth level at least showed he had that top quality. Has Henderson ever shown it? Do you ever see it from him now? No.

    Gerrard scored a good amount, even in his younger days. If you look back to when he was 20 he scored 10 goals in a season - he showed the ability at a very young age and it was evident that he always had it. In the Houllier years, and he's quoted this, he primarily saw himself as a defensive player - aka not the role that Henderson is being used in today. Moreover, everyone knew Gerrard had the quality in him - as I alluded to before, his repeated long range wonder goals and cool finishes from the edge of the box showed this.

    No. I showed you why Henderson is statistically unproven at all levels, and then I gave you the reasons why his statistics are so poor.

    We take a reasonable amount of long shots. Gerrard, Coutinho, Balotelli and Sterling to a lesser extent are all encouraged to shoot from range. Suarez and Sturridge regularly do/did. Henderson is never - because he's not good enough and everyone knows it. Who has highlighted Henderson's runs from the deep as a strong point? Can you give 4-5 examples of them? Runs from the deep work only when your finishing at the end of them is passable and Henderson's isn't.

    Comparing anyone to a 23 year old Steven Gerrard is silly because at the age of 23 he was already proven as one of the best midfielders in the league, and he had numerous goals and performances in big matches, finals, and a PFA YPOTY trophy. And at the end of 03-04 he was subject to a £20m from Chelsea, which was £8m more than the bid for Lampard a few years before that (and you can bet that we could have eked that out to £25m if we wanted to). He was magnificent. Naturally talented and playing to a level that Henderson never will, even at the ages of 23-25. Ball control, dribbling, long shots, long passes, headers, tackling, he was the prototype box to box midfielder and as good as it came, even at those ages. What was lacking very slightly was goals and that was due to Houllier's shackles. Enter Rafa, welcome to goals and all time great performances. Henderson already has a progressive manager who's done huge amounts for his game. The truth is that he just doesn't have the talent level that Gerrard did - few ever will. And that means the comparison is silly. If you argue that he can do what Gerrard did to a lesser scale and make a transfer to number 10 anyway, you need to look at the comparative skills required to make the transfer to number 10, the main one of which is finishing and goalscoring, and as addressed above, Henderson's finishing and goalscoring is abysmal, unproven and never seen, in comparison to that young Gerrard.
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    Just thinking about it Rafa is a don. Brought the best out in Gerrard and made Torres the greatest striker on the planet for a while.


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    (Original post by IceJJFish(II))
    Just thinking about it Rafa is a don. Brought the best out in Gerrard and made Torres the greatest striker on the planet for a while.


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    I would be surprised if there was ever a weaker team than 05 that has ever won the EC/CL.
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    We will never see another like Steven Gerrard.

    The slip is probably the greatest tragedy in football history. If there was one man who just did not deserve that.
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    (Original post by JamesR12)
    I would be surprised if there was ever a weaker team than 05 that has ever won the EC/CL.
    Incredible cup manager. Absolutely incredible. It's a shame his struggles in the league but my word. He has 17 major trophies, the same number as Ancelotti. Let that sink in.


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    (Original post by JamesR12)
    I think the main issue is that we've not gone after high calibre - we've not gone after any calibre. We've made just one midfield signing since Allen in Rodgers' first window. 5 windows and all we have to show for it is Allen - who's a top 4 squad player in the right system, and Can who's been somewhat ludicrously underplayed. Rodgers needs to address the fact that Gerrard can not be a permanent fixture in our midfield and neither can Lucas and neither can Allen. Rodgers just doesn't see our midfield as a problem - he didn't see Lucas-Gerrard as an issue last season when we were stuttering along at a top 4 pace in the first half of the year (as soon as we started playing with one of them in midfield we hit title-contending form). Both players have regressed since then and yet we're still stuck with them as our midfield duo.

    I would defend the selling of Agger. He was a good ball player but a mediocre defender and one whose time at the club was naturally ending. I advocate the decision completely. The Lovren signing has failed spectacularly but where Rodgers has ****ed up himself is Sakho being underplayed until now and the continued persistence with Skrtel - Lovren for far too long a period of time. The truth about Sakho is that he is an immense defender. Thoroughbred, international calibre defender. In France he starts above Koscielny and they conceded one goal with him on the pitch at the WC, a set piece which was the fault of Varane (in the quarter, Koscielny came on for 20 minutes and they immediately conceded 3 haha). He has all the physical attributes required and he's a natural leader. He's not perfect but he's the best defender at our club by a country mile. What he needs is a partner - Skrtel is not it, and never will be. Lovren (of last season) and Sakho have a similar style of play and that was the intended pairing (in most people's minds anyway) when Lovren was signed. I can't tell you what's gone wrong with Lovren but I doubt we'll see a resurgence this year, he looks a broken man. Sakho - Toure should be our CB partnership, based on form, let alone everything else.
    Rodgers doesn't have the balls to drop Gerrard especially not now due to our poor form this season and if we were to lose with Gerrard not starting the media and a lot of the fans would be wanting BR's head. I think Gerrard should be dropped since more often than not he doesn't contribute much and at times is a detriment to the team. He's turning 35 at the end of this season as well. Can was solid today in the second half, a few loose balls but apart from that he did well to keep Boyd quiet. I really like the look of Can and I'd like to see him start on Monday night. It'll be interesting to see who we go for in January and in the summer. I hope BR doesn't just buy young talent but rather players who can hit the ground running and immediately improve the team.

    Sakho has been injured for most of this season (since the Everton game back in Sept) so that's why he hasn't featured. He looks far more comfortable when playing now which is good to see, he's seemed to have found his feet and settled in this season. Lovren should have been dropped way earlier in favour of Toure whilst Sakho was injured, a player playing with low confidence in a team which is under performing has done nothing to help Lovren settle in. That's BR's fault for forcing the Lovren-Skrtel partnership when it was obvious it wouldn't work out. He's at a club with much bigger expectations and he needs time to get used to it, not his fault for being thrown in the deep end. I think we'll see a resurgence in the second half of the season. Once our defence has a settled back line and Sturridge is back it would be a good time to slowly ease Lovren to partner with Sakho. The time out for Lovren should help him get himself together and hopefully in training he can get used to playing with Sakho. But at the moment I also agree that Skaho and Toure should be the CB pairing, they are so much more composed on the ball and when making challenges.
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    (Original post by JamesR12)
    We will never see another like Steven Gerrard.

    The slip is probably the greatest tragedy in football history. If there was one man who just did not deserve that.
    Honestly when I saw him slip and then Ba scored I felt so gutted for Gerrard.

    He's an absolute legend.
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    (Original post by The.Joker)
    Honestly when I saw him slip and then Ba scored I felt so gutted for Gerrard.

    He's an absolute legend.
    Gerrard is just <3

    Was so gutted for him.

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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Wonder what the mystery injury was for B.Jones? Mignolet looks shaky as ever which is not a good sign.
    That goal-kick he conceded was absolutely horrific. It may be the single worst thing I've seen at Turf Moor since Djimi's own goal.
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    (Original post by Obiejess)
    Gerrard is just <3

    Was so gutted for him.

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    I'm still not over the fact we weren't able to win the PL last season. :bawling:
 
 
 
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