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    Shame Ojo didn't get a run out, by the way.

    It was around this time last year that Brad Smith came on and was woeful at Stamford Bridge, though, so maybe it's a blessing in disguise.
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    (Original post by The.Joker)
    I'm still not over the fact we weren't able to win the PL last season. :bawling:
    Ik. Ik.

    Especially with the stupid slippy gerrard comments ALL THE TIME.

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    Thought we'd never see a win in that yellow kit...
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    (Original post by The.Joker)
    I'm still not over the fact we weren't able to win the PL last season. :bawling:
    Makes it worse that we're now a shadow of last season's side.
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    Good god, watching MOTD and todays fixtures has been one of the worst displays of refereeing. It's like the refs were still on their xmas break.
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    (Original post by samir12)
    Good god, watching MOTD and todays fixtures has been one of the worst displays of refereeing. It's like the refs were still on their xmas break.
    Clearly they'd been drinking last night and they'd left their glasses at home. Absolutely shocking refereeing today.
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    (Original post by JamesR12)
    Lucas and Skrtel between them are the worst spine of the team in the world.

    Shy out of challenges, back off, slow and clumsy. Disgraceful. We knew this 3 years ago and we're still stuck with them. Absolute mediocrity.
    I've never been sold on Lucas and Skrtel is a mistake waiting to happen in every single game.
    The sad thing is that right now they are both players that need to be in our team; we simply don't have anybody else that could do a better job.
    No convincing CBs and Gerrard can't play DM anywhere near the standard needed.

    I maintain that DM is one of the most essential positions in the entire pitch - all of the top teams in the world have a real quality player to break up play and protect their defence (Busquettes, Alonso, Matic, etc...)
    It's painfully obvious when a team (i.e: liverpool/arsenal) doesn't have the quality in that position and it leaves defences seriously exposed by 3-5 attacking players plus fullbacks overrunning them in their own half.

    Just out of interest, have we had a Toure/Sakho partnership before?
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    (Original post by JamesR12)
    No he's not.

    Skrtel backs off, and backs off, and backs off, until the attacker has a free shot at goal from 10 yards out, and it's hard to miss from that range. He's nowhere near the standard of defender that Cahill is. He's mediocre. He gets portrayed as this Vidic type hard man and in reality he gets bullied by the likes of Carlton ****ing Cole. He's mediocre in every sense.
    That has nothing to do with the point im making, cahill is usually at fault for goals because of backing up too much which is what skrtel gets accused of.

    Im not saying that skrtel is as talented as cahill. Just that the style od play is similar
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    The game was terrible yesterday by all accounts. The highlights on MOTD were enough to convince me I'm glad I was at work and didn't stream it.
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    Mignolet on MOTD was like a comedy sketch!!! He really is impersonating a professional footballer.


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    Mignolet was terrible yesterday but surely it isn't hard for Brendan Rodgers to just tell Mignolet to kick it up the field to a target man because their play is too slow and they need numbers up the field with 'offensive possession' of the ball. Clearly Sterling struggles up front on his own due to his poor physique and needs somebody next to him. Sturridge and Sterling really should be the pairing, but Balotelli/Lambert and Sterling could work too.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    That has nothing to do with the point im making, cahill is usually at fault for goals because of backing up too much which is what skrtel gets accused of.

    Im not saying that skrtel is as talented as cahill. Just that the style od play is similar
    You said something along the lines of 'blame the midfield not Skrtel' and that's just ludicrous. Defenders are there to defend, not to be mollycoddled by a midfield.

    I don't watch Cahill for 90 minutes a week but his issues to do with backing off and off are nothing remotely like Skrtel's and they're just not comparable players at all.

    Classic Jam statement whereby 'X player is just another Y player'. (Henderson = Ramires, Skrtel = Cahill, Sterling = Willian, and those are just the ones since I've been posting for the last week and a bit). Footballers don't have to be categorised like that. Idk why you do it.
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    (Original post by JamesR12)
    You said something along the lines of 'blame the midfield not Skrtel' and that's just ludicrous. Defenders are there to defend, not to be mollycoddled by a midfield.

    I don't watch Cahill for 90 minutes a week but his issues to do with backing off and off are nothing remotely like Skrtel's and they're just not comparable players at all.

    Classic Jam statement whereby 'X player is just another Y player'. (Henderson = Ramires, Skrtel = Cahill, Sterling = Willian, and those are just the ones since I've been posting for the last week and a bit). Footballers don't have to be categorised like that. Idk why you do it.
    So if your protection is Lucas and Gerrard you're going to be exposed more its as simple as that. Terry and Cahill have Matic to protect them before he gets put in one on one situations see what happens when Mikel gets put in for a game instead of Matic. That's not to say they are not better individual defenders.

    Cahill's issues with backing off is similar to skrtels though, I watch him for 90mins most weeks and can say that if Matic and Terry weren't there to hold his hand he'll get exposed(see the Balotelli goal at the world cup e.g.). Did not say at any point that they are the same level though just that their issues are similar.

    Sterling is another Willian, they have similar attributes, work hard, can play across the front line, direct, lack end product/weak finishing, I said he is better and would surpass him a lot but they have a similar style of play on the ball. Quite a valid comparison to make and saying classic Jam statement doesn't make it any less valid than it actually is.

    Tell me how they are not similar and then we can have a decent discussion x
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    (Original post by Lúcio)
    I maintain that DM is one of the most essential positions in the entire pitch - all of the top teams in the world have a real quality player to break up play and protect their defence (Busquettes, Alonso, Matic, etc...)
    That's just a bit of a nothing statement - it's widely acknowledged that the 'spine' of the team, being your GK, CBs, DM/CMs and strikers are the most important positions... so all you're saying is that a good DM is more important than good full backs and good wingers. Which is nothing new?

    Top teams eg Madrid don't play with a typical DM at they're on a 20+ game win streak, Arsenal have been consistent at the top tier for the best part of the decade without a quality DM and weaker teams like Soton do have a top class DM so it's not really like 'good DM and only a good DM = having a top team'. Key position for sure but no more so than striker or centre backs. I'd argue both of those are more important, and maybe goalkeeper too if you look at how De Gea has earned United 10 or more points this year and how important Courtois was for Atletico.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    So if your protection is Lucas and Gerrard you're going to be exposed more its as simple as that. Terry and Cahill have Matic to protect them before he gets put in one on one situations see what happens when Mikel gets put in for a game instead of Matic. That's not to say they are not better individual defenders.

    Cahill's issues with backing off is similar to skrtels though, I watch him for 90mins most weeks and can say that if Matic and Terry weren't there to hold his hand he'll get exposed(see the Balotelli goal at the world cup e.g.). Did not say at any point that they are the same level though just that their issues are similar.

    Sterling is another Willian, they have similar attributes, work hard, can play across the front line, direct, lack end product/weak finishing, I said he is better and would surpass him but they have a similar style of play on the ball. Quite a valid comparison to make and saying classic Jam statement doesn't make it any less valid than it actually is.
    Cahill has proved his worth in one on one situations in the CL for ages. His performance vs Messi was vintage. The Balotelli goal was nothing to do with backing off? Regardless, I've seen people run at him and his problems are nothing like Skrtel's.

    Cba for the Sterling thing and in general your need to categorise players/burning desire to be able to say they're akin to another player is just not necessary.
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    (Original post by JamesR12)
    Cahill has proved his worth in one on one situations in the CL for ages. His performance vs Messi was vintage.
    So basically you're chatting ****. Cahill's one on one performance after Messi tries to get through the two rows of defenders is going to look good if you're any decent defender.

    The Balotelli goal was nothing to do with backing off? Regardless, I've seen people run at him and his problems are nothing like Skrtel's.
    Yes it did. Cahill simply should have marked him tighter and stopped the ball when he should have got to his man. Cahill is a cover defender not an aggressive stopper while it's best to have a balance between the two Cahill struggles with that Balance while Terry gets it perfectly. He gets a ridiculous amount of cover from the wide players and the DMs so obviously he's going to look like he isn't too bad one on one because he rarely gets put into that situation.

    Another example is the adebayor goal 2 years ago.


    Cba for the Sterling thing and in general your need to categorise players/burning desire to be able to say they're akin to another player is just not necessary.
    So basically you have no argument to this.

    If you can't comprehend the simple point that players have similar playing styles and similar issues to each other then there's no point having this conversation. All you say is Cba but if you really had a point you'd have said the point (e.g. like you did with Ramires vs Henderson)
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    (Original post by The.Joker)
    Rodgers doesn't have the balls to drop Gerrard especially not now due to our poor form this season and if we were to lose with Gerrard not starting the media and a lot of the fans would be wanting BR's head. I think Gerrard should be dropped since more often than not he doesn't contribute much and at times is a detriment to the team. He's turning 35 at the end of this season as well. Can was solid today in the second half, a few loose balls but apart from that he did well to keep Boyd quiet. I really like the look of Can and I'd like to see him start on Monday night. It'll be interesting to see who we go for in January and in the summer. I hope BR doesn't just buy young talent but rather players who can hit the ground running and immediately improve the team.

    Sakho has been injured for most of this season (since the Everton game back in Sept) so that's why he hasn't featured. He looks far more comfortable when playing now which is good to see, he's seemed to have found his feet and settled in this season. Lovren should have been dropped way earlier in favour of Toure whilst Sakho was injured, a player playing with low confidence in a team which is under performing has done nothing to help Lovren settle in. That's BR's fault for forcing the Lovren-Skrtel partnership when it was obvious it wouldn't work out. He's at a club with much bigger expectations and he needs time to get used to it, not his fault for being thrown in the deep end. I think we'll see a resurgence in the second half of the season. Once our defence has a settled back line and Sturridge is back it would be a good time to slowly ease Lovren to partner with Sakho. The time out for Lovren should help him get himself together and hopefully in training he can get used to playing with Sakho. But at the moment I also agree that Skaho and Toure should be the CB pairing, they are so much more composed on the ball and when making challenges.
    We bought the three Soton players and Balotelli as 'hit the ground running' players and that went abysmally. Young players aren't an answer either, I'd probably be looking at 23-25 year olds from abroad. I've always liked Can, ever since we were linked and he's been pretty good every time he's played for us, he deserves to play more. Just Rodgers putting his 4 senior (underperforming) midfielders ahead of Can for no reason.

    I think Sakho's been fit and still not picked for a while, and him/Rodgers have issues anyway. I think BR was right to persist with Lovren-Skrtel for a while, but he did do it for too long. I don't think the 'big club expectations' thing works for Lovren, I think he was just caught out as not being that good a player, I guess. He's definitely lost confidence even compared to his early season displays, the Dortmund game (that was a ****ing laugh) and the subsequent games up till Spurs. Not sure that even a full confidence Lovren is good enough for us.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    So basically you're chatting ****. Cahill's one on one performance after Messi tries to get through the two rows of defenders is going to look good if you're any decent defender.


    Yes it did. Cahill simply should have marked him tighter and stopped the ball when he should have got to his man. Cahill is a cover defender not an aggressive stopper while it's best to have a balance between the two Cahill struggles with that Balance while Terry gets it perfectly. He gets a ridiculous amount of cover from the wide players and the DMs so obviously he's going to look like he isn't too bad one on one because he rarely gets put into that situation.

    Another example is the adebayor goal 2 years ago.



    So basically you have no argument to this.

    If you can't comprehend the simple point that players have similar playing styles and similar issues to each other then there's no point having this conversation. All you say is Cba but if you really had a point you'd have said the point (e.g. like you did with Ramires vs Henderson)
    Cahill was praised as the man that stopped him. Cahill held the defence together after your saviour Terry got himself sent off. Was Bosingwa the other CB or Ivanovic? Cahill again in the CL final. He's definitely a good enough 1 on 1 defender. Not comparable to Martin Skrtel at all. And that's the crux of the point.

    You don't understand what 'backing off' means if you think the Balotelli goal was due to it. It has nothing to do with positioning at crosses.

    Yeah, the Adebayor goal is probably his fault. The main fault is losing the ball initially - replay doesn't indicate whose fault that was. He should have been one, maybe two yards closer to the ball than he was. But on a breakaway like that where you're outnumbered, a shot from 25 yards is not the end of the world (it's actually a fairly desirable outcome for a defending team) and it's not a giant culpability on his head.

    Players of course have similar playing styles. The way that you describe 'Sterling as essentially a slightly better Willian' is silly, because their games are not that close together. And that kind of categorisation is just not necessary lol. Their playing styles aren't that similar. Likewise Ramires and Henderson and likewise Cahill and Skrtel. It's just tedious and tiresome to continue this with you.
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    (Original post by JamesR12)
    Cahill was praised as the man that stopped him. Cahill held the defence together after your saviour Terry got himself sent off. Was Bosingwa the other CB or Ivanovic? Cahill again in the CL final. He's definitely a good enough 1 on 1 defender. Not comparable to Martin Skrtel at all. And that's the crux of the point.
    Bosingwa, surprisingly Bosingwa's CB performances(only a couple) were very good for us. Cahill held a 10 man defence together. Yes of course man.

    You don't understand what 'backing off' means if you think the Balotelli goal was due to it. It has nothing to do with positioning at crosses.

    Yeah, the Adebayor goal is probably his fault. The main fault is losing the ball initially - replay doesn't indicate whose fault that was. He should have been one, maybe two yards closer to the ball than he was. But on a breakaway like that where you're outnumbered, a shot from 25 yards is not the end of the world (it's actually a fairly desirable outcome for a defending team) and it's not a giant culpability on his head.
    I was mentioning backing off as in not getting tight to your man/closing them down the second they're in your zone, unless you mean it as in retreating the second a guy with pace comes.

    Luiz is also at fault for the goal for losing the ball after pushing forward and he had to cover at LB but that's not really the point, after that he had filled his position so it went down to Cahill.

    Many of our goals come from that right side, either via the fault of Ivanovic or via Cahill(newcastle game), it's why Mourinho initially was using Matic on the left but he now plays as the right sided DM, because he realised that side is weak and Fabregas doesn't offer as great protection there for obvious reasons.

    Players of course have similar playing styles. The way that you describe 'Sterling as essentially a slightly better Willian' is silly, because their games are not that close together. And that kind of categorisation is just not necessary lol. Their playing styles aren't that similar. Likewise Ramires and Henderson and likewise Cahill and Skrtel. It's just tedious and tiresome to continue this with you.
    What you mean by their games are not that close together? I already explained what they rely on(fast paced directness, versatility across the front line, lack of consistent end product, good dribbling skills and link up).

    Cahill and Skrtel have similar problems with backing off, it doesn't look as bad in our system as we like our defenders players to retreat a little(but balance it with tight marking when need be), with you lot I don't know what kinda defensive system you have since you'll have Sakho or Lovren pushing forward for the same ball or Skrtel deciding to sit back/defend zonally. Put Cahill in your defensive system and he'll look suspect, you don't pay 40M on CBs and they all be flops, clearly it's the people in front of them letting them down. Real had the same problem last few seasons.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    What you mean by their games are not that close together? I already explained what they rely on(fast paced directness, versatility across the front line, lack of consistent end product, good dribbling skills and link up).

    Cahill and Skrtel have similar problems with backing off, it doesn't look as bad in our system as we like our defenders players to retreat a little(but balance it with tight marking when need be), with you lot I don't know what kinda defensive system you have since you'll have Sakho or Lovren pushing forward for the same ball or Skrtel deciding to sit back/defend zonally. Put Cahill in your defensive system and he'll look suspect, you don't pay 40M on CBs and they all be flops, clearly it's the people in front of them letting them down. Real had the same problem last few seasons.
    Backing off means conceding ground to an attacker rather than attacking the ball. Nothing to do with positioning at crosses.

    The midfield is defensively suspect, but it's not just them. It's a combination of factors. The defenders aren't individually good enough (bar Sakho), there is no defensive unit or organisation or tactics from the manager, and repeated individual errors ruin everything. But simple fact of the matter is that Skrtel isn't good enough however you look at it, exposed by his midfield or not - and that his style and game is not comparable to Cahill at all.

    '(fast paced directness, versatility across the front line, lack of consistent end product, good dribbling skills and link up)'
    Other players who this applies to: Jefferson Montero, Kevin Mirallas, Kuba, Nacer Chadli, Adnan Januzaj, Alex Oxlade Chamberlain, Xherdan Shaqiri, etc, etc, etc. Are all wingers in the world the same, Jam?

    It's just ridiculous. Sterling's playing style and game is not 'essentially the same as' Willian's. No more to say on either Skrtel or Sterling from me
 
 
 
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