Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Midlander
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#7741
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#7741
(Original post by TheBugle)


Quite glad people on both sides are calling you out for your stupidity.
Says he who hasn't read his own campaign's white paper.


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Midlander
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#7742
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#7742
(Original post by Boab)
Calling people bigots seems to be your default position. Quite pathetic really.

Can you not just accept when you've made a tit out of yourself?
Calling bigots bigots is my default position.


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Boab
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#7743
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#7743
Though as proven by your utter stupidity, the bigots you were referring to were imaginary!
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euphful
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#7744
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#7744
(Original post by TheBugle)
That's great. Has any renowned economists came out and said that?

As far as I know, S&P have rated iScotland "AAA" (with a CU).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-economy.html

Does that suffice?

Where's this S&P evidence?


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MatureStudent36
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#7745
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#7745
(Original post by TheBugle)
That's great. Has any renowned economists came out and said that?

As far as I know, S&P have rated iScotland "AAA" (with a CU).
Try reading the full report from Standard and poor. It doesn't state things as clearly cut as you make them out to be. Their report uses phrases such as 'fraught with problems' 'would struggle to match the UKs AAA rating.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3866b10a-9...#axzz2xem6gcB3
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TheBugle
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#7746
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#7746
(Original post by euphful)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-economy.html

Does that suffice?

Where's this S&P evidence?


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Cheers.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politi...but.1393520492
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk...tandard-poors/

fwiw, i remember this being one of BT's warnings, that iScotland would lose the AAA. Funnily, UK was downgraded to AA+ quite soon after.

Edit: Could the telegraph read any more hyperbolic?
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MatureStudent36
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#7747
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#7747
(Original post by TheBugle)
Cheers.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politi...but.1393520492
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk...tandard-poors/

fwiw, i remember this being one of BT's warnings, that iScotland would lose the AAA. Funnily, UK was downgraded to AA+ quite soon after.

Edit: Could the telegraph read any more hyperbolic?
Nothing in the actual report about maintaining a AAA rating.

Did you know that even with the downgrade from AA+, the cost of borrowing was still lower than Norways AAA rating.
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TheBugle
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#7748
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#7748
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Nothing in the actual report about maintaining a AAA rating.

Did you know that even with the downgrade from AA+, the cost of borrowing was still lower than Norways AAA rating.
I like how you tell me to read the report, and then link me to an article that's hidden behind a paywall. Why don't you provide the report?

Great, I'm sure the Norwegians are in tears. What's your point caller?

I like how quick you're to pounce on the Yes group, are you trying to come across as desperate?
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Cryptographic
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#7749
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#7749
(Original post by TheBugle)
That's great. Has any renowned economists came out and said that?

As far as I know, S&P have rated iScotland "AAA" (with a CU).
Putting aside the citation needed for this. If a Scotland has a CU, then they would have obviously taken the debt and therefore it doesn't tell us what it would be if they didn't take the debt.
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Cryptographic
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#7750
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#7750
'A SNP spokesperson said: "Every day is April Fools day for the No campaign, people in Scotland have seen through their daft claims most recently on the pound."'
Loving this quote, has s/he had their sense of humour removed?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26834791
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Maths Tutor
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#7751
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#7751
(Original post by Midlander)
The No campaign is being asked to say what more Scots can expect to be offered if they vote no. In my book, this stuff looks like RUK being held to ransom to keep Scotland as part of it-just like the Barnett formula put forward as a sweetener around the '70s referendum.

As for whinging bigots, all we have heard for years from leading Yes politicians is how bad Westminster is, how evil Tories are, how much fairer Scots are, how Scots care more about social equality and so on. It's this self-righteousness that Scotland should be entitled to whatever it wants with no compromise and anybody who opposes it is a scaremongerer.

(Original post by Midlander)
Labour has virtually never needed Scotland to get in. What is left of the UK will be quite happy to be rid of those whining folk from north of the border who complain about having the second highest levels of public expenditure in the country and more devolution than its neighbours can dream of. Scotland wants to be bribed to stay in the UK-I say RUK shouldn't be held to ransom for these self righteous, whinging bigots and let them go if being in the UK is such a chore.
(Original post by Midlander)
It may surprise you to know that Scotland's biggest export customer doesn't take kindly to being insulted ad nauseum from across the border.

As an Englishman, why on earth do YOU want to keep Scotland a part of the UK???????????

And don't give me that mantra 'We are Better Together'.

You hate the Scots, even union supporting ones, consider them to be "whinging bigots" and yet you spend hours on this thread opposing Scottish independence.

No doubt your stand makes perfect sense and sounds completely reasonable and rational to the likes of L i b, MatureStudent36 and euphful.

But to me it seems that:

- either you need psychiatric help,

- or you believe that rUK WILL be worse off if Scotland becomes independent.

You don't give a damn whether Scotland would be worse off or better off.

It appears proven to me that you are an anti-Scottish bigot. You hate the Scots but you want to keep them chained to your union FOR YOUR OWN VESTED INTERESTS OR BENEFIT.

You have been whinging on this thread for ages of how unfair it is for you to be charged tuition fees in Scotland.

Why don't you let Scotland become independent and then, by your argument, Scotland will be forced to treat English students the same as any other EU students?
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Maths Tutor
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#7752
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#7752
(Original post by euphful)
What I am against is the distortion of fact and reality by the SNP in a desperate attempt to win.
So you think 'No Scotland' have not been very effective in convincing the people of the 'facts' and the 'truth'?

What do you think 'No Scotland' should do to counter "the distortion of fact and reality by the SNP"?
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Maths Tutor
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#7753
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#7753
(Original post by L i b)
I will most likely be moving out of Scotland for a few years regardless of whether there is a yes or no vote. However if Scotland did vote for independence, I doubt I'd be particularly inclined to come back. I would not accept Scottish citizenship and, if granted it, would renounce it.
Ah, those 'proud and patriotic BUT' - - - Scots!

So you will CHOOSE to become a 'foreigner' by renouncing Scottish citizenship?

Wouldn't it be very unfair to the anti-independence Scots who remained if people like you left abandoning them?

Like it being very unfair of Scotland abandoning Labour voters in Liverpool and Newcastle and leaving them at the mercy of the Tories?
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MatureStudent36
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#7754
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#7754
(Original post by TheBugle)
I like how you tell me to read the report, and then link me to an article that's hidden behind a paywall. Why don't you provide the report?

Great, I'm sure the Norwegians are in tears. What's your point caller?

I like how quick you're to pounce on the Yes group, are you trying to come across as desperate?
You mean this S&P report.

http://worldofstuart.excellentconten...iderations.pdf

We view Scotland's trend growth as closely matching that of the U.K. While North Sea output (again on a geographical, rather than population-derived basis) accounts for 16% of Scottish GDP (calculated using data from the Scottish government's experimental national accounts project), this does not, under our methodology, lead us to conclude that the economy is excessively concentrated. We typically only adjust for excess economic concentration should a single sector exceed one-fifth of a country's GDP.

Nevertheless, Scotland's economic performance would be subject to several potential adjustment risks during its early years as an independent state.

First, at 8% of GDP, and employing 7% of the workforce, Scotland's financial sector is large and closely integrated into the U.K. Re-domiciling of these international banks to the remaining U.K. could exert
a drag on the size of Scottish GDP, though less so on gross national product, which excludes income from foreign-owned companies.

Second, Scotland also has a natural dependency on merchandise and business services trade with the rest of the U.K., the destination for an estimated 49% of Scottish exports; independence may lead to a partial reversal of that integration, with economic consequences.

Third, the public sector is sizable, accounting for nearly one-quarter of the total workforce. This is considerably higher than the U.K. average. In our opinion, shifting post-independence to a lower public sector employment rate could weigh on Scotland's initial growth performance.

Fourth, at 16% of GDP the oil sector is also large. Indeed, a secular decline in oil production in the North Sea has been
a significant factor in the U.K.'s below-par growth and productivity performance since 2008 and would be proportionally a larger drag on Scotland's future GDP performance unless the decline in volume energy output could be reversed. However, redressing the long-term decline in oil production might also carry fiscal implications if it involved lowering taxes on the energy sector.



I'm sorry, but although newnetscotland and businessforscotland pumped out the 'We'd maintain our AAA rating line, it doesn't appear to be in the S&P report.
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TheBugle
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#7755
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#7755
(Original post by Cryptographic)
'A SNP spokesperson said: "Every day is April Fools day for the No campaign, people in Scotland have seen through their daft claims most recently on the pound."'
Loving this quote, has s/he had their sense of humour removed?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26834791

The barrage is pretty constant
, whether it'd be from the media or from this very website.
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MatureStudent36
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#7756
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#7756
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Ah, those 'proud and patriotic BUT' - - - Scots!

So you will CHOOSE to become a 'foreigner' by renouncing Scottish citizenship?

Wouldn't it be very unfair to the anti-independence Scots who remained if people like you left abandoning them?

Like it being very unfair of Scotland abandoning Labour voters in Liverpool and Newcastle and leaving them at the mercy of the Tories?
Careful there Maths Tutor. You'll start accusing Lib of being a Traitor/Quisling/Uncle Tom next.
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MatureStudent36
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#7757
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#7757
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
So you think 'No Scotland' have not been very effective in convincing the people of the 'facts' and the 'truth'?

What do you think 'No Scotland' should do to counter "the distortion of fact and reality by the SNP"?
It needs to do very little. The distortions of fact are so blindingly obious that they unravel themselves under even the most basic of scrutiny.
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TheBugle
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#7758
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#7758
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You mean this S&P report.

http://worldofstuart.excellentconten...iderations.pdf


Blah blah blah.
Cheers.

Even excluding North Sea output and calculating per capita GDP only by looking at onshore income, Scotland would qualify for our highest economic assessment. Higher GDP per capita, in our view, gives a country a broader potential tax and funding base to draw from, which supports creditworthiness.

We view Scotland's trend growth as closely matching that of the U.K. While North Sea output (again on a geographical, rather than population-derived basis) accounts for 16% of Scottish GDP (calculated using data from the Scottish government's experimental national accounts project), this does not, under our methodology, lead us to conclude that the economy is excessively concentrated. We typically only adjust for excess economic concentration should a single sector exceed one-fifth of a country's GDP.
Excellent. Ta. :yy: :lol:

Also flies in the face of BT's argument that Scotland's economy would diverge drastically away from rUK's.
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Maths Tutor
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#7759
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#7759
(Original post by euphful)
What I am against is the distortion of fact and reality by the SNP in a desperate attempt to win.
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
So you think 'No Scotland' have not been very effective in convincing the people of the 'facts' and the 'truth'?

What do you think 'No Scotland' should do to counter "the distortion of fact and reality by the SNP"?
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
It needs to do very little. The distortions of fact are so blindingly obious that they unravel themselves under even the most basic of scrutiny.
Why do you spend your waking life on this thread then?

Don't you have anything better to do?
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MatureStudent36
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#7760
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#7760
(Original post by TheBugle)
Cheers.



Excellent. Ta. :yy: :lol:
So you've done the standard YeSNP approach of cherry picking which paragraphs to read.
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