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There is no evidence for God Watch

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    (Original post by RobML)
    Things only exist by virtue of effects, no effects =/= no existence
    Who said so?
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    (Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
    Who said so?
    It just seems self-evident to me. Like for instance, a thing doesn't precede its properties, a thing is the properties. And properties are defined soley by effects (or changes), i.e. the speed of a thing is defined by change of position over time, shape of a thing is defined by changes in the motion of other things around it, etc.
    Properties cannot be defined without change.
    In absence of properties there are no things.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    It just seems self-evident to me. Like for instance, a thing doesn't precede its properties, a thing is the properties. And properties are defined soley by effects (or changes), i.e. the speed of a thing is defined by change of position over time, shape of a thing is defined by changes in the motion of other things around it, etc.
    Properties cannot be defined without change.
    In absence of properties there are no things.
    There may be a more fundamental flaw than this, but I would point out that even if this were true these examples relate to physical objects only. No one believes God to be a physical object. This is just a category error. If physical objects exist by their effects, then so be it. God isn't a physical object.

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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    There may be a more fundamental flaw than this, but I would point out that even if this were true these examples relate to physical objects only. No one believes God to be a physical object. This is just a category error. If physical objects exist by their effects, then so be it. God isn't a physical object.

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    God must have physical properties in order to exert physical effects.
    And if God is only made up of some form of abstract properties, then he is powerless and therefore not God.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    God must have physical properties in order to exert physical effects.
    And if God is only made up of some form of abstract properties, then he is powerless and therefore not God.
    Your first sentence is an assumption I'm not sure you can sustain. Who says you must have physical properties to exert physical effects? No theist does, given that, as an explanation for why there is something rather than nothing, theists would argue that a transcendant creator (without physical properties - since no physical world existed) created everything in the physical world. There is also no way of testing your assumption, since it lies beyond the reach of the scientific method.

    From having 'abstract properties' it does not follow that God is powerless. Given that they are argued to have created the physical world, it is easy to see them as being superior to any physical property possible.

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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Your first sentence is an assumption I'm not sure you can sustain. Who says you must have physical properties to exert physical effects?
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    It follows from properties being defined by effect/changes. It's self-evident, not something that requires empirical evidence.

    From having 'abstract properties' it does not follow that God is powerless. Given that they are argued to have created the physical world, it is easy to see them as being superior to any physical property possible.
    If you follow my argument, the most that God can be is a first effect, the first change from nothing to something. Else God cannot be defined in any meaningful way.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    It just seems self-evident to me. Like for instance, a thing doesn't precede its properties, a thing is the properties. And properties are defined soley by effects (or changes), i.e. the speed of a thing is defined by change of position over time, shape of a thing is defined by changes in the motion of other things around it, etc.
    Properties cannot be defined without change.
    In absence of properties there are no things.
    Putting aside the fact that platonists would disagree with your materialism and that the very notion of change, time and physical property could be emergent phenomena in theoretical physics, what makes you think changes must be confined to the physical world we observe?

    I don't think you've met the burden of proof required to rule out supernaturalism.
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    (Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
    Putting aside the fact that platonists would disagree with your materialism and that the very notion of change, time and physical property could be emergent phenomena in theoretical physics, what makes you think changes must be confined to the physical world we observe?

    I don't think you've met the burden of proof required to rule out supernaturalism.
    Define a non-physical change?
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    (Original post by RobML)
    If you follow my argument, the most that God can be is a first effect, the first change from nothing to something. Else God cannot be defined in any meaningful way.
    God can be defined as the formless Cause of all causes; under occasionalism for example, all effects in the physical world are actualised directly by God, who is thought to be the Sustainer of the laws of nature.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Define a non-physical change?
    You've already provided a plausible example, but I don't have to. Again, arguments from ignorance are not enough to establish metaphysical naturalism.
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    (Original post by Onde)
    Yes it does. Hypotheses must be possible explanations of the observable (including in the case of null hypothesis). "God" does not work as a hypothesis because there are no specified traits (e.g. omnipotence, omnipresence etc.) that are possible.
    Who's proposing God as a "hypothesis" for the observable? Hypotheses are posited to *explain* some range of phenomena; the question of existence itself however isn't concerned with that since one can reject cosmological and design arguments (which sometimes posit God as a hypothesis) without necessarily rejecting God's existence itself.

    How are the listed traits not possible? Can you expand on this? If you're arguing that God cannot exist because the concept thereof is incoherent, then that is far more interesting. That would qualify as an atheological proof against the existence of God; you would've met your burden of proof insofar as God is concerned, but you'd struggle to extrapolate your reasoning to the supernatural in general.

    Unless god is redefined, we can conclude it does not exist based on the evidence.
    No, we can't. At best we can lack belief in the existence of God; you still haven't met your burden of proof to be able to say "we know the supernatural doesn't exist". Appeals to ignorance won't help. This is basic epistemology.

    Even if god as an explanation was a hypothesis and the null hypothesis was its non-existence, we would conclude that god does not exist based on the evidence. That is the extent of the situation: god does not even qualify to be dismissed in such a fashion.
    Hypothesis testing is a highly practical and rigorous way to scientifically analyse data and is widely used in the social sciences. Anyone who has learned hypothesis testing, however, should be able to tell you its limitations and why it loses applicability outside of highly controlled, scientifically collected data.

    Simply put, applying the idea of null hypothesis testing to non-scientific, philosophical questions like theism is silly. I can get similar absurd conclusions when applying it to other philosophical questions: My alternative hypothesis could be that a world external and independent of our own minds exists and my null hypothesis is that it doesn't. Since there is no scientific measure that can be used to determine the statistical difference between the two hypotheses, I am left with the unrejected null hypothesis that external reality does not exist.
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    (Original post by Onde)
    It could be defined that way, but it wouldn't be based on anything observable.
    It need not be based on observation for it to be internally consistent. It could be based on revelation, gnosis via enlightenment, or simply an axiom that underpins their worldview, which would include methodological naturalism.
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    (Original post by Onde)
    Within observable Reality, everything that has any meaningful effect and is observable are physical manifestations. It isn't a matter of who says it must be that way, it is more that anything which is observable is necessarily a natural phenomenon. (A supernatural phenomenon would be an oxymoron: if such an phenomenon was alleged to have taken place, it would necessarily have been a natural phenomenon).

    I think rather than people such as myself limiting the power of the supernatural (as I have been accused of), it is people such as yourself who are limiting the power of the natural.
    This presupposes that science can explain all observable phenomena, and that anything that science cannot explain, cannot possibly exist. But there's no reason to accept this.

    Let's consider a typical example of a supernatural occurrence: a possible ghost sighting - a smokey and hazy figure is observed. Obviously, this would involve the production of light, which will travel along space in the form of photons and interact with our eyes to create the visual perception of the ghostly figure. The ghost (and the photons) seemingly materialised out of nowhere, so how might a naturalist respond to this apparent violation of conservation of energy? He could say that the laws of nature are incomplete but the phenomenon could in principle be explained via science. A "matrixist" could argue that the such phenomena may be glitches in the matrix, and although it cannot be explained by the laws of nature in our universe, it could be explained in terms of computer science in the meta-universe. These are all logically valid possibilities. Likewise the supernaturalist could respond by affirming the validity of known laws as inductive generalisations that work fine most of the time, but sometimes said laws could be violated for a brief period of time - the phenomenon would be observable but nonetheless inexplicable in terms of science. All three lines of thought are ontological valid; which one you take depends on your prior metaphysical views.
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    https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=sf3XGql8wAY

    I think you guys should watch this
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    (Original post by davidoriakhi)
    https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=sf3XGql8wAY

    I think you guys should watch this
    You are wrong.
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    https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=bupmrEtxv5w

    Please watch.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    You are wrong.
    Glad you found that useful.
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    (Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
    This presupposes that science can explain all observable phenomena, and that anything that science cannot explain, cannot possibly exist. But there's no reason to accept this.

    Let's consider a typical example of a supernatural occurrence: a possible ghost sighting - a smokey and hazy figure is observed. Obviously, this would involve the production of light, which will travel along space in the form of photons and interact with our eyes to create the visual perception of the ghostly figure. The ghost (and the photons) seemingly materialised out of nowhere, so how might a naturalist respond to this apparent violation of conservation of energy? He could say that the laws of nature are incomplete but the phenomenon could in principle be explained via science. A "matrixist" could argue that the such phenomena may be glitches in the matrix, and although it cannot be explained by the laws of nature in our universe, it could be explained in terms of computer science in the meta-universe. These are all logically valid possibilities. Likewise the supernaturalist could respond by affirming the validity of known laws as inductive generalisations that work fine most of the time, but sometimes said laws could be violated for a brief period of time - the phenomenon would be observable but nonetheless inexplicable in terms of science. All three lines of thought are ontological valid; which one you take depends on your prior metaphysical views.
    If you can't simply look at the sun without squinting your eyes, then how do you expect so see the Almighty God?
    You can barely see his creation but yet want to see the creator. How ironic
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    amazing discussion...
    Spoiler:
    Show
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    (Original post by davidoriakhi)
    If you can't simply look at the sun without squinting your eyes, then how do you expect so see the Almighty God?
    You can barely see his creation but yet want to see the creator. How ironic
    Absolute non-sequitur. Why would God be blindingly bright just because the sun is? Light is a part of physical reality but God is claimed not to be.

    And why pick just the sun? What about the millions of things (still claimed to be God's creation) that we have no problem looking at?
 
 
 
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