Anonymity for Rape Accused Watch

User237126
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#61
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#61
Absolutely. And I think women who lie about being raped should also get much higher sentences, because being accused of rape and being found not guilty often ends up ruining the accused's life anyway. No-one deserves that- just as no-one deserves to be raped.
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snowyowl
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#62
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#62
(Original post by missygeorgia)
But Ruth Hall, of Women Against Rape, said the government's decision to grant anonymity to suspects was an "insult".

"More attention needs to be paid to the 94% of reported cases that do not end in conviction rather than the few that are false," she said.

"If men accused of rape got special rights to anonymity, it would reinforce the misconception that lots of women who report rape are lying."


I agree with her.
And I think she's talking complete and utter ********.
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CombineHarvester
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#63
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#63
(Original post by missygeorgia)
Yes. See the investigation I referred to in my reply to LordShrapnel.




Show me the post where I claimed this legislation would have a negative effect on conviction rates.
You said rapes weren't being treated seriously and used the 6% conviction rate statistic to back up your argument. You then said this would further the problem of rapes not being treated seriously enough, inferring that it would further the problem of our already low conviction rate. This premise is completely false and fails to take into account the positive aspects of anonymity which is why its being suggested. You haven't stated any clear negative effect this legislation will have on rape itself in the UK. If you don't think it'll have a negative effect on conviction rates, what are the negative aspects of this proposal?
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missygeorgia
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#64
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#64
(Original post by CombineHarvester)
You said rapes weren't being treated seriously and used the 6% conviction rate statistic to back up your argument. You then said this would further the problem of rapes not being treated seriously enough, inferring that it would further the problem of our already low conviction rate. This premise is completely false and fails to take into account the positive aspects of anonymity which is why its being suggested. You haven't stated any clear negative effect this legislation will have on rape itself in the UK. If you don't think it'll have a negative effect on conviction rates, what are the negative aspects of this proposal?
So basically, you can't show me the post where I made that claim, and it was mostly your assumption.

And rape victims not being treated properly or taken seriously isn't what you'd consider a 'negative aspect'? You really think this is OK?
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paddyman4
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#65
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#65
(Original post by missygeorgia)
It's not the victim's 'feelings', it's the persistent attitude in our society that rape accusations are not to be trusted. The changing of this attitude is what I hold to be most important regarding rape cases, and this legislation only reinforces the view that rape victims can't be taken seriously. Is it really that difficult to understand?
Firstly, you have it reversed. The reason rape accusations ruin people even when found not guilty is the persistent attitude in our society that, when it comes to rape as well as child molestation, there is no smoke without fire. When Michael Jackson was accused of molestation, the attitude wasn't 'the supposed victim is blatantly lying' - it was that he definitely did it. No 'not guilty' verdict was able to change that. The same goes for Jade Goody's ex - everyone assumed he was guilty when he got accused of rape. Same with the boys who were supposed to have raped a little girl - a second after that news story came up, which was during the trial, there was a thread on TSR full of people talking about the sorry state of Britain and how shocked they were that this happened. Everyone assumed it was true without hesitation. When it turned out to not be, everyone was shocked.

Secondly, once again, a perception of an abstract societal attitude could in no way take precedence over the safety and happiness of those innocent men who are falsely accused.
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lm_wfc
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#66
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#66
"Official statistics show that while only 6% of all reports of rape to the police lead to a conviction, more than half of the cases that make it to trial result in the suspect being found guilty."


"more than half" is exactly why, alot of those found innocent deserve to be anonamous. It might not increase the conviction rate, but it's not going to lower it, and it will stop ruining peoples lifes when falsely accused
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Hopple
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#67
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#67
(Original post by missygeorgia)
And rape victims not being treated properly or taken seriously isn't what you'd consider a 'negative aspect'? You really think this is OK?
That is a problem with the police, from what I've read. This won't be increased by granting anonymity to the accused. A problem that will be reduced by granting anonymity is that the accused won't be presumed guilty by the press and public prior to being found guilty.

Note that the victims do have anonymity, so they already cannot be paraded by the press as possible liars.
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missygeorgia
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#68
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#68
(Original post by paddyman4)
Firstly, you have it reversed. The reason rape accusations ruin people even when found not guilty is the persistent attitude in our society that, when it comes to rape as well as child molestation, there is no smoke without fire. When Michael Jackson was accused of molestation, the attitude wasn't 'the supposed victim is blatantly lying' - it was that he definitely did it. No 'not guilty' verdict was able to change that. The same goes for Jade Goody's ex - everyone assumed he was guilty when he got accused of rape. Same with the boys who were supposed to have raped a little girl - a second after that news story came up, which was during the trial, there was a thread on TSR full of people talking about the sorry state of Britain and how shocked they were that this happened. Everyone assumed it was true without hesitation. When it turned out to not be, everyone was shocked.

Secondly, once again, a perception of an abstract societal attitude could in no way take precedence over the safety and happiness of those innocent men who are falsely accused.
When children are involved in rape cases, I think the dynamics are very different. Ditto celebrities. With children there isn't the possibility of them 'wanting it' or 'asking for it', which is a huge problem for adult rape victims. Child victims are taken a lot more seriously. With celebrities, people can make money out of hyping up the drama.

The attitude that women are to blame for rape, or are lying, is far from abstract. It is a very real problem, and involves the way rape victims are treated, the way their cases are handled and the conviction rate. It's far from being just a matter of principle.
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missygeorgia
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#69
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#69
(Original post by Hopple)
That is a problem with the police, from what I've read. This won't be increased by granting anonymity to the accused. A problem that will be reduced by granting anonymity is that the accused won't be presumed guilty by the press and public prior to being found guilty.

Note that the victims do have anonymity, so they already cannot be paraded by the press as possible liars.
It's a problem with the police, but also a wider problem with society in general, that will be reinforced by this legislation.
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CombineHarvester
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#70
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#70
(Original post by missygeorgia)
So basically, you can't show me the post where I made that claim, and it was mostly your assumption.

And rape victims not being treated properly or taken seriously isn't what you'd consider a 'negative aspect'? You really think this is OK?
No, it was obvious what your argument was unless you were quoting the statistic for fun and it had no relevance to your argument whatsoever (which you have to admit if that wasn't the basis of your argument). You still haven't said how this legislation will mean women's rape claims aren't treated seriously, if anything there will be less complaint from the accused as his identity will not be revealed and therefore he is more likely to co-operate with police in the investigation rather than kicking up a fuss about how it will affect his job, relationships etc. Your previous post cited lack of training police officers have in dealing with rape cases as a potential cause for the low rate of conviction, how does this have any relevance to the suggestion of anonymity? Your argument about "police not taking it seriously" therefore has no relevance to this proposal, if it were a proposal to reduce the amount of training police officers have then you might have a point.
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Hopple
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#71
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#71
(Original post by missygeorgia)
It's a problem with the police, but also a wider problem with society in general, that will be reinforced by this legislation.
As I said, society tends to suspect the accused is guilty before being proved so, hence it is not a problem with society. Read the stories of people on both sides, you'll see that the men are shunned by society, and the women are not taken seriously by the police.
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CombineHarvester
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#72
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#72
(Original post by missygeorgia)
So basically, you can't show me the post where I made that claim, and it was mostly your assumption.

And rape victims not being treated properly or taken seriously isn't what you'd consider a 'negative aspect'? You really think this is OK?
Here's where you made the claim btw: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...4&postcount=46
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missygeorgia
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#73
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#73
(Original post by CombineHarvester)
You still haven't said how this legislation will mean women's rape claims aren't treated seriously, if anything there will be less complaint from the accused as his identity will not be revealed and therefore he is more likely to co-operate with police in the investigation rather than kicking up a fuss about how it will affect his job, relationships etc. Your previous post cited lack of training police officers have in dealing with rape cases as a potential cause for the low rate of conviction, how does this have any relevance to the suggestion of anonymity? Your argument about "police not taking it seriously" therefore has no relevance to this proposal, if it were a proposal to reduce the amount of training police officers have then you might have a point.
Defendents being granted anonymity is going to reinforce the assumption that a large amount of rape victims are lying. How is this not obvious? The whole basis of the legislation is the assumption that a lot of rape victims are lying or 'asking for it', otherwise there'd be no point to the legislation. Therefore, it furthers the idea that a large amount of rape victims are lying. Therefore, it furthers the idea that rape victims can't be taken seriously- an idea which is already prevalent in this society.

Seriously, do you not get it? I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but if you don't understand my point, this debate isn't that engaging for either of us. Instead of saying 'you have no proof' or whatever why don't you show me an alternative view of it, instead of just ignoring the obvious prejudice against rape victims in our society?
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missygeorgia
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#74
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#74
(Original post by CombineHarvester)
Here's where you made the claim btw: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...4&postcount=46
There's not even a slight mention of the anonymity of defendents in that (5 month old?!?!) post. I don't even know what claim you're accusing me of making any more, and I don't think you know either.
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Diaz89
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#75
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#75
(Original post by missygeorgia)
Defendents being granted anonymity is going to reinforce the assumption that a large amount of rape victims are lying. How is this not obvious?
What?! This makes no sense at all.
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Kralizec
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#76
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#76
(Original post by missygeorgia)
Defendents being granted anonymity is going to reinforce the assumption that a large amount of rape victims are lying. How is this not obvious? The whole basis of the legislation is the assumption that a lot of rape victims are lying or 'asking for it', otherwise there'd be no point to the legislation. Therefore, it furthers the idea that a large amount of rape victims are lying. Therefore, it furthers the idea that rape victims can't be taken seriously- an idea which is already prevalent in this society.

Seriously, do you not get it? I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but if you don't understand my point, this debate isn't that engaging for either of us. Instead of saying 'you have no proof' or whatever why don't you show me an alternative view of it, instead of just ignoring the obvious prejudice against rape victims in our society?
No. It's going to address the issue that some women accusing a man of rape do lie.

It doesn't happen often but it still happens. You can't possibly deny that.

And when it does happen even if the man is found innocent his life will be ruined.

This is a quick, simple and effortless way to stop that from happening.

How on earth can you be opposed to that?
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missygeorgia
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#77
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#77
(Original post by Diaz89)
What?! This makes no sense at all.
What's the point of granting anonymity if there aren't shed loads of innocent people being accused of rape? To justify this legislation, the number of lying victims would have to be pretty high. Therefore, the idea that rape victims are lying is reinforced.

Of course, if there ARE a large number of false accusations, this legislation would be justified, but there aren't. It's just prejudice against rape victims.
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Kralizec
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#78
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#78
(Original post by missygeorgia)
What's the point of granting anonymity if there aren't shed loads of innocent people being accused of rape? To justify this legislation, the number of lying victims would have to be pretty high. Therefore, the idea that rape victims are lying is reinforced.

Of course, if there ARE a large number of false accusations, this legislation would be justified, but there aren't. It's just prejudice against rape victims.
I can't believe you just said that.

Blatant sexism.

I would love to see you go up to man who has had his life ruined by a false rape accusation and tell him that.
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missygeorgia
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#79
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#79
(Original post by Kralizec)
No. It's going to address the issue that some women accusing a man of rape do lie.

It doesn't happen often but it still happens. You can't possibly deny that.

And when it does happen even if the man is found innocent his life will be ruined.

This is a quick, simple and effortless way to stop that from happening.

How on earth can you be opposed to that?
Of course it happens, and when it does it's terrible, but unless it happens a lot, there's no justification for legislation. Basically this-

Some legal experts have argued that anonymity could only be justified if... there was proof of a high rate of false allegations
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Kralizec
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#80
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#80
(Original post by missygeorgia)
Of course it happens, and when it does it's terrible, but unless it happens a lot, there's no justification for legislation. Basically this-
Are you even thinking about what you are saying?

Child molestation doesn't happen often
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