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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Second rate fantasy according to what standards? (generally) teenage girls don't look for good writing in a fantasy, that much of obvious from the popularity of twilight. And why should they?
    If the Twilight series 'just aren't good books', which is what you said, then they're not exactly first rate, are they?

    And clearly they are popular, but that doesn't constitute a defence of the series. Why shouldn't 'teenage girls generally' look for and be able to enjoy books of better quality: in style and substance? Fantasy and escapism can be sought elsewhere, and your defense of the series is merely that somehow teenage girls need them because of some underlying sexual frustration....but oh well if the books also promote crappy values, particularly aimed at women. It seems rather a strange tautology to me.

    I don't even have a problem with people liking the books per se, but we can all do better...and shouldn't we want to? Shouldn't we want to read something that is actually good, and that is still fantasy and escapism? Twilight is what it is, but there isn't really much defence for it apart from saying it is what it is, and that's another tautology that holds no weight
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    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    The values of Twilight, i.e. the plot, the fantasy, the idea of emulating Bella (a ditzy, pretty girl) and needing or aspiring to have someone like Edward (a dark, handsome, mysterious stranger) is a pretty shallow, empty, superficial and incredibly insecure take on the female psyche.
    So considering the majority of teenage girls who read twilight seem to love it, would you say they're all 'shallow, empty, superficial and incredibly insecure'? That's pretty sexist of you.
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    (Original post by CrazyBeautiful)
    If the Twilight series 'just aren't good books', which is what you said, then they're not exactly first rate, are they?

    And clearly they are popular, but that doesn't constitute a defence of the series. Why shouldn't 'teenage girls generally' look for and be able to enjoy books of better quality: in style and substance? Fantasy and escapism can be sought elsewhere, and your defense of the series is merely that somehow teenage girls need them because of some underlying sexual frustration....but oh well if the books also promote crappy values, particularly aimed at women. It seems rather a strange tautology to me.

    I don't even have a problem with people liking the books per se, but we can all do better...and shouldn't we want to? Shouldn't we want to read something that is actually good, and that is still fantasy and escapism? Twilight is what it is, but there isn't really much defence for it apart from saying it is what it is, and that's another tautology that holds no weight
    Of course they're not first rate in terms of good writing- but I also made clear that I think it's totally useless to try and judge twilight by it's literary merit. To say Twilight is a bad book is irrelevent- of course it's a bad book in terms of literary skill, but that's not what's interesting about it. That's not what I think should be analysed. People who read Twilight aren't looking for a well written book to read.

    Like I said, it's like trying to analyse porn in terms of the cinematographic qualities. That's not what's interesting about porn, that's not what's relevent, and nobody's going to tell someone who watches porn that they should be watching something with better camera work, that they should try and seek fantasy in, I dunno, the sex scenes in Oscar winning films or arthouse movies.

    Regarding the crappy values, I agree- another way in which porn and Twilight are comparable (meyer would hate me for this). But I think rather than slamming Twilight and the people who read it we should look at our own society and about why we have a whole generation of girls who are attracted to these values. I'm obv not trying to defend the blatant antifeminism of the novels, but I do think it's very hypocritical for society be like 'oh it's so awful' when these are precisely the values our society is saturated with.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    So considering the majority of teenage girls who read twilight seem to love it, would you say they're all 'shallow, empty, superficial and incredibly insecure'? That's pretty sexist of you.
    Source for your claim? From my experience the overwhelming majority of females despise and only a minority of teenage girls who have read it actually like it. I'd say the majority of teenage girls who have read it (whether all of it or only a little) don't like it at all. How many teenage girls have you seen who like it vs. the ones who don't like it or criticise it? You can create a public poll on TSR if you wish to prove me wrong.
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    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    Source for your claim? From my experience the overwhelming majority of females despise and only a minority of teenage girls who have read it actually like it. I'd say the majority of teenage girls who have read it (whether all of it or only a little) don't like it at all. How many teenage girls have you seen who like it vs. the ones who don't like it or criticise it? You can create a public poll on TSR if you wish to prove me wrong.
    A source for whether people like Twilight or not? Does the huge response to the books and films not speak for itself? I said 'seems' because obviously there haven't been proper surveys done on this.

    I'd say the majority of teenage girls who have read it (whether all of it or only a little) don't like it at all.
    If this was true then nobody would buy the sequels. You could claim that people are only buying it out of curiosity and then hating it- except the three sequels alone have been prominent on bestsellers lists for years. People don't buy sequels unless they like the book.

    So tell me- do you think the millions of girls who love Twilight are all, in your words, shallow, empty, superficial and incredibly insecure?
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    A source for whether people like Twilight or not? Does the huge response to the books and films not speak for itself? I said 'seems' because obviously there haven't been proper surveys done on this.



    If this was true then nobody would buy the sequels. You could claim that people are only buying it out of curiosity and then hating it- except the three sequels alone have been prominent on bestsellers lists for years. People don't buy sequels unless they like the book.

    So tell me- do you think the millions of girls who love Twilight are all, in your words, shallow, empty, superficial and incredibly insecure?
    Titanic was a record breakingly popular film but I wouldn't say most people like it. You've changed your argument somewhat so if you're talking about the relatively small proportion of girls who read and enjoy Twilight and buy the sequel releases then yes I'd say they're buying into a pretty pathetic ideal. They may acknowledge this and even be ashamed of it (same applies with boys who watch porn) but it doesn't change that they're secretly indulging in a shallow fantasy. A tiny minority might like it for other reasons such as its literary merit but I don't think they're relevant to this.

    Just as a reminder, read this extract from your OP and honestly tell me it's not sexist:

    Twilight isn't SUPPOSED to be a literary masterpiece. It's teenage chick lit, it's the female equivilent of porn, or video games or something. Twilight is pure escapism, and fantasy material for girls, just like porn is for guys.

    Yeah, so the difference is that people take twilight pretty seriously, and get obsessed with it- in my opinion it's because for so long teenage girls (and older girls too) have been dying for something trashy and sexy and fantastical like twilight. Teenage girls simply don't have an outlet for sexuality, because they're constantly told they shouldn't really have a proper sexuality.

    Yes, as a literary work, Twilight sucks. But it obviously taps into something really powerful. There's this huge undercurrent of sexual frustration in girls and women, and I think it's amazing that something like this one trashy teenage girls book can cause such a HUGE effect. Meyer has tapped into something important that teenage girls and women feel, and that's not to be sniffed at.
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    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    Titanic was a record breakingly popular film but I wouldn't say most people like it.
    I would. A hell of a lot of people aren't going to admit they like something trashy. I love Titanic, and any of my female friends I've spoken to about it love it- or loved it when it came out- but we'd obviously mock it. The fact is, if something- a book or a film- isn't likeable, if it doesn't appeal to the public, then it doesn't sell, simple as. People don't buy a DVD of a film they don't like (Titanic DVD sales were massive) and they don't buy a sequel to a book they don't like.


    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    Just as a reminder, read this extract from your OP and honestly tell me it's not sexist:
    I read it. It's not sexist.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    I would. A hell of a lot of people aren't going to admit they like something trashy. I love Titanic, and any of my female friends I've spoken to about it love it- or loved it when it came out- but we'd obviously mock it. The fact is, if something- a book or a film- isn't likeable, if it doesn't appeal to the public, then it doesn't sell, simple as. People don't buy a DVD of a film they don't like (Titanic DVD sales were massive) and they don't buy a sequel to a book they don't like.




    I read it. It's not sexist.
    You'd say most people like Titanic based on its sales figures? Avatar beat its record so you'd say the same for that? Frankly it's simply not the case, what proportion of females in the UK have read Twilight and the sequel, a very tiny proportion. If you look at girls in their early teens this figure might rise but it will still be a small minority (same applies with males and porn) however it doesn't mean it's a trend which needs to be respected and I'm sure many Twilight lovers and porn users will look back upon this time in their life with embarrassment.

    To try and make this into a feminist point about how "this liberates female sexual oppression" when it is clearly a reflection of everything that's wrong about the way girls are perceived (weak, dull, unintelligent, irresponsible, insecure, reliant on a male etc.) is a ridiculous claim. Just because something is popular among teenage girls doesn't make it somehow morally righteous in the same way eating disorders or self harm have higher rates among teenage girls. To any reasonable person Twilight represents a major step back in feminism, the sorts of concepts in the novel aren't new ideas by any stretch, they've been around for centuries and they're certainly not progressive.
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    (Original post by CookieDoughLove)
    He didn't. That the film makers fault.

    In the book, Edward doesn't do that. They discuss him being a vampire when they are driving home from Port Angeles. Also when they are having lunch in the cafeteria.
    I can think of better places to discuss being a vampire than a cafeteria. That's like someone telling her boyfriend she's pregnant in the middle of a Maths lesson.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Hearmeout yeah?

    I'm an English Lit student, and obviously Twilight just isn't a good book- as in, it's not well written and it seems to promote scarily bad values without realising it. It's antifeminist, indulgent and the poor writing grates on me.

    However, what pisses me off more than Twilight is people thinking they're clever by ****ging it off. Comparing twilight to proper books is like comparing porn to proper films and saying 'it's so unrealistic and the plot is terrible'. 99% of people know twilight is ****. Just like 99% of people know porn is embarassing and badly made.
    Twilight isn't SUPPOSED to be a literary masterpiece. It's teenage chick lit, it's the female equivilent of porn, or video games or something. Twilight is pure escapism, and fantasy material for girls, just like porn is for guys.

    Yeah, so the difference is that people take twilight pretty seriously, and get obsessed with it- in my opinion it's because for so long teenage girls (and older girls too) have been dying for something trashy and sexy and fantastical like twilight. Teenage girls simply don't have an outlet for sexuality, because they're constantly told they shouldn't really have a proper sexuality.

    Yes, as a literary work, Twilight sucks. But it obviously taps into something really powerful. There's this huge undercurrent of sexual frustration in girls and women, and I think it's amazing that something like this one trashy teenage girls book can cause such a HUGE effect. Meyer has tapped into something important that teenage girls and women feel, and that's not to be sniffed at.

    (Er, to reiterate though, I don't actually think the books are good.)
    As a male you have changed my perspective of this - I can think of nothing better than loads and loads of girls effectively getting off to anti feminist literature.
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    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    You'd say most people like Titanic based on its sales figures? Avatar beat its record so you'd say the same for that?
    Frankly it's simply not the case, what proportion of females in the UK have read Twilight and the sequel, a very tiny proportion. If you look at girls in their early teens this figure might rise but it will still be a small minority (same applies with males and porn) however it doesn't mean it's a trend which needs to be respected and I'm sure many Twilight lovers and porn users will look back upon this time in their life with embarrassment.
    What difference does that make?

    And yeah, I'd def say the same for Avatar.

    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    To try and make this into a feminist point about how "this liberates female sexual oppression" when it is clearly a reflection of everything that's wrong about the way girls are perceived (weak, dull, unintelligent, irresponsible, insecure, reliant on a male etc.) is a ridiculous claim.
    Yes, that would be a ridiculous claim. Good thing I didn't make that claim.

    Just because something is popular among teenage girls doesn't make it somehow morally righteous
    Absolutely, which is why I made no mention of morality.

    To any reasonable person Twilight represents a major step back in feminism
    Yes, like I said, it's antifeminist.
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    (Original post by PianoKeys4)
    I can think of better places to discuss being a vampire than a cafeteria. That's like someone telling her boyfriend she's pregnant in the middle of a Maths lesson.
    Oh dear lord. IT'S A STORY. It's not bloody real.

    Jesus. I'm sure there are many books which could be tweaked here and there, if we are discussing reality. Except it's not supposed to be realistic :rolleyes:

    Some people really piss me off, it's as though you have nothing better to do than whinge about the most tiny details. Why don't you just accept it for what it is, and accept that some people enjoy it. I don't particularly enjoy Lord of the Rings but I don't sit pulling it apart piece by piece, I accept it simply does not interest me but will entertain others.
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    (Original post by CookieDoughLove)
    Oh dear lord. IT'S A STORY. It's not bloody real.

    Jesus. I'm sure there are many books which could be tweaked here and there, if we are discussing reality. Except it's not supposed to be realistic :rolleyes:

    Some people really piss me off, it's as though you have nothing better to do than whinge about the most tiny details. Why don't you just accept it for what it is, and accept that some people enjoy it. I don't particularly enjoy Lord of the Rings but I don't sit pulling it apart piece by piece, I accept it simply does not interest me but will entertain others.
    I wasn't being serious, you know. :eek:
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    What difference does that make?

    And yeah, I'd def say the same for Avatar.



    Yes, that would be a ridiculous claim. Good thing I didn't make that claim.



    Absolutely, which is why I made no mention of morality.



    Yes, like I said, it's antifeminist.
    :lolwut:

    Unless you're doing some serious backtracking here, I don't know what you mean by this:

    Yeah, so the difference is that people take twilight pretty seriously, and get obsessed with it- in my opinion it's because for so long teenage girls (and older girls too) have been dying for something trashy and sexy and fantastical like twilight. Teenage girls simply don't have an outlet for sexuality, because they're constantly told they shouldn't really have a proper sexuality.

    Yes, as a literary work, Twilight sucks. But it obviously taps into something really powerful. There's this huge undercurrent of sexual frustration in girls and women, and I think it's amazing that something like this one trashy teenage girls book can cause such a HUGE effect. Meyer has tapped into something important that teenage girls and women feel, and that's not to be sniffed at.
    It suggests girls are somehow turning to this to liberate them from the oppressive sexual frustration they're suffering from as a result of societal norms. Anyway, Meyer isn't some amazing revolutionary she's simply tapped into a female market which has always existed, a romantic tale where a dull, ditzy, pretty girl falls head over heels in love with a mysterious, handsome vampire isn't a new concept by any means nor is the level of sexual content in the novel. She's simply made a current version which appeals to the younger female audience, the entry level readers and the ones who - despite its lack of literary merit read it because there's such few alternatives in the market (or they are unaware of it). The success of Twilight is not something which reflects any change in society or female values and that's why I think it's pretty depressing. This template has been successful for hundreds of years hence why it is constantly being renewed and if in 20 years no-one has made a similar series of novels, an author will write a newer, shinier version with all the new gadgets and fads referred to and it'll be a roaring success like Twilight has been. I certainly do hope this is not the case but meh.
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    Lol "antifeminist"

    bloody hell
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    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    :lolwut:

    Unless you're doing some serious backtracking here, I don't know what you mean by this:

    It suggests girls are somehow turning to this to liberate them from the oppressive sexual frustration they're suffering from as a result of societal norms. Anyway, Meyer isn't some amazing revolutionary she's simply tapped into a female market which has always existed, a romantic tale where a dull, ditzy, pretty girl falls head over heels in love with a mysterious, handsome vampire isn't a new concept by any means nor is the level of sexual content in the novel. She's simply made a current version which appeals to the younger female audience, the entry level readers and the ones who - despite its lack of literary merit read it because there's such few alternatives in the market (or they are unaware of it). The success of Twilight is not something which reflects any change in society or female values and that's why I think it's pretty depressing. This template has been successful for hundreds of years hence why it is constantly being renewed and if in 20 years no-one has made a similar series of novels, an author will write a newer, shinier version with all the new gadgets and fads referred to and it'll be a roaring success like Twilight has been. I certainly do hope this is not the case but meh.
    Then read my OP again. I'm not suggesting any of the things you're accusing me of. You're not saying anything that disagrees with my original post- in fact, I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
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    to be honest, it gets a little bit boring when people moan about badly written books. its a good book because it is popular - surely the amount of people who read it defiones whether it is a good book rather than literary snobs?

    my own opinion is that its pretty badly written, but i quite enjoy reading it nontheless - its plot is good and moreish, but some of the same phrases are used ridiculously often
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Hearmeout yeah?

    I'm an English Lit student, and obviously Twilight just isn't a good book- as in, it's not well written and it seems to promote scarily bad values without realising it. It's antifeminist, indulgent and the poor writing grates on me.

    However, what pisses me off more than Twilight is people thinking they're clever by ****ging it off. Comparing twilight to proper books is like comparing porn to proper films and saying 'it's so unrealistic and the plot is terrible'. 99% of people know twilight is ****. Just like 99% of people know porn is embarassing and badly made.
    Twilight isn't SUPPOSED to be a literary masterpiece. It's teenage chick lit, it's the female equivilent of porn, or video games or something. Twilight is pure escapism, and fantasy material for girls, just like porn is for guys.

    Yeah, so the difference is that people take twilight pretty seriously, and get obsessed with it- in my opinion it's because for so long teenage girls (and older girls too) have been dying for something trashy and sexy and fantastical like twilight. Teenage girls simply don't have an outlet for sexuality, because they're constantly told they shouldn't really have a proper sexuality.

    Yes, as a literary work, Twilight sucks. But it obviously taps into something really powerful. There's this huge undercurrent of sexual frustration in girls and women, and I think it's amazing that something like this one trashy teenage girls book can cause such a HUGE effect. Meyer has tapped into something important that teenage girls and women feel, and that's not to be sniffed at.

    (Er, to reiterate though, I don't actually think the books are good.)
    I referenced Twilight in my essay on the SAT and got a perfect score =). It makes a few (although very, very few) good points
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Hearmeout yeah?
    Interesting post my question would be what exactly do you think it's tapping into specifically? I don't just mean sexuality generally here, there are a lot of trashy escapist sexy books for women to read (my nan has a rather extensive Mills and Boon collection) I mean what aspect in particular do you think it is?
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Then read my OP again. I'm not suggesting any of the things you're accusing me of. You're not saying anything that disagrees with my original post- in fact, I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
    So basically you're saying as a result of desperation young females are resorting a trashy novel to relieve themselves of sexual oppression? It's simply an observation?
 
 
 
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