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    (Original post by Arenas123)
    The rule you are talking about applies to UK medical schools and the only reason for that is the fact the government pays for it.

    Anyone on this thread got a valid reason why the fact my friend went to medical school before is relevant ? He wasted a year of his life. His parents wasted money. How does it affect KCL exactly ? How is it in any way relevant ?
    The rule has nothing to do with money. The rule has to do with the greater duty of care a medical school has to the public, as a training ground for new doctors who are being placed with people of significant vulnerability on a day to day basis.

    The dishonesty and deceit that lying about previous applicants or admissions to medical schools is of significance for two reasons:

    A.) it demonstrates to the schools themselves that there is a poor level of commitment to the original course which is useful when weeding out applicants in a heavily oversubscribed system
    and
    B.) lying on official documentation directly contravenes GMC Good Medical Practice subsections

    56. Probity means being honest and trustworthy, and acting with integrity: this is at the heart of medical professionalism.
    57. You must make sure that your conduct at all times justifies your patients' trust in you and the public's trust in the profession.

    I repeat, it has nothing to do with the government's subsidisation of the course.
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    I literally don't see why him being at medical school in India for a bit would matter to the uni here whatsoever
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    (Original post by George99)
    I literally don't see why him being at medical school in India for a bit would matter to the uni here whatsoever
    Maybe not, but the fact now remains he lied of his application. If the university didn't care about it, they will do now.
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    (Original post by digitalis)
    The rule has nothing to do with money. The rule has to do with the greater duty of care a medical school has to the public, as a training ground for new doctors who are being placed with people of significant vulnerability on a day to day basis.

    The dishonesty and deceit that lying about previous applicants or admissions to medical schools is of significance for two reasons:

    A.) it demonstrates to the schools themselves that there is a poor level of commitment to the original course which is useful when weeding out applicants in a heavily oversubscribed system
    and
    B.) lying on official documentation directly contravenes GMC Good Medical Practice subsections

    56. Probity means being honest and trustworthy, and acting with integrity: this is at the heart of medical professionalism.
    57. You must make sure that your conduct at all times justifies your patients' trust in you and the public's trust in the profession.

    I repeat, it has nothing to do with the government's subsidisation of the course.

    I take your point, I think the decision will be a more neuanced one. I agree, the person was dishonest, multiple times, the medical school will probably take a dim view, but then if he can demonstrate dedication to this course, then previous slips - although pretty major might be laid at the door of experience as an 18 year old who was a little bit keen going about it the wrong way - you do have to take into account the fact that many applicants would under the 'stress' of the time sell an arm and a leg to get to where they want to be, now that alone in no way shape or form lends justification to his behaviour, but it does make it more understandable - after all, wouldn't you fight to better your life chances? If I were the faculty tutor, I would keep them on a tight leash, final written warming, one strike and you're out - perhaps with minimum standards on exams that are higher to compensate his peers for the additional education that he has already recieved - unofically, of course. There is an argument for booting him out - I am within a hairs bredth of accepting in on principle alone, but sometimes principles do have to be consiered in light of the situation - what would necessarily be gained partway through the year from chucking him out? I would say not much, and it still would not give someone in his UCAS cohort his place.

    Should be bear through the rest of medical school spotless, then he should be allowed perhaps IMO to qualify, with the stipulation that he declares his GMC hearing - as I think you have to, to future employers - so they can judge what he did do, against what has been achieved since, and depending on what he does with the rest of his days - be allowed to make a career. After all, the GMC demands personal probity, but how many doctors - of whatever level can say that they have never cheated on a partner, or turned up worse for wear, or even worked whilst under the influence of drink, or drugs? - all of which are arguable immediatly more dangerous to the general public - but then if we are that zealous, I have a feeluing that we might not have any consultants left...
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    (Original post by George99)
    I literally don't see why him being at medical school in India for a bit would matter to the uni here whatsoever
    Because he was dishonest, if you're dishonest when you get in, you will be when you go through, and possibly when you qualify - now people are not angelic, but the very reason doctors can treat patients, and that patients are trusting of the medical profession is professional probity - if you want to join the club, you play by the rules.
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    Um...well see the blackmailer he must be tought a lesson.He has your mate by the balls.Indeed my advice probably won't be recommended by a reputable lawyer but tell the black mailer you will kill his family.Lolololol That would be pretty awkward conversation.But seriously go to the police or deck him.
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    Because he was dishonest, if you're dishonest when you get in, you will be when you go through, and possibly when you qualify - now people are not angelic, but the very reason doctors can treat patients, and that patients are trusting of the medical profession is professional probity - if you want to join the club, you play by the rules.
    Barely.

    Though I agree with your post as a whole.
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    They won't want to keep him when they find out because they don't want someone who has learned different ways of treating illness, different protocols and stuff like that in a foreign country. Plus, he has hidden the truth with misinformation by not telling the whole truth.
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    (Original post by Horsedobbin)
    They won't want to keep him when they find out because they don't want someone who has learned different ways of treating illness, different protocols and stuff like that in a foreign country. Plus, he has hidden the truth with misinformation by not telling the whole truth.
    Bleurgh :yawn:
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    Haha, I like how he adds "hidden the truth" as some kind of irrelevant, unimportant extra point.
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    (Original post by sd91)
    I do not know why you are all saying he won't get kicked out...

    The real issue here, and hence why the other guy is blackmailing him is because if you start a medical course ANYWHERE and leave for whatever reason UK medical schools are unlikely to take you on. This student applied to UCAS under false pretences, he stated he was in india but did not mention the fact that he was at uni which constitutes lying. KCL thought he was a gap year student when he was not and the student took up a place that could have gone to someone else. If the GMC ever found this out, the guy would have no chances of succeeding in any healthcare profession due to fitness to practice rules. Tell your friend to google the case of Dr Prabhu Satya - a dr struck off the medical register for lying on his UCAS form about not being a medical student previously.
    But if you google you see that isn't the sole reason....
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    (Original post by sd91)
    I don't think he was being slightly dishonest. When I enrolled on my medical degree 3 months ago, we all had to sign the forms saying that we were not previously enrolled at university and i think it's the same at the other UK med schools. The guy had every oppourtunity to declare it really. When you do stuff like this you never know how it will come back to haunt you when applying for posts...
    it's not.
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    (Original post by Arenas123)
    Just out of interest what should he of done ? He was an 18 year old that didn't think he was going to get in to medical school so he ended up in India. You're telling me because of the mistake he made when he was 18 he should never be allowed to follow his dream. The rule you are talking about applies to UK medical schools and the only reason for that is the fact the government pays for it.

    Anyone on this thread got a valid reason why the fact my friend went to medical school before is relevant ? He wasted a year of his life. His parents wasted money. How does it affect KCL exactly ? How is it in any way relevant ?

    Which university do you go to ? Nobody I know has heard of this form you're talking about.

    The fact that his university didn't care tells me all I need to know.
    You've been persistently missing the point for 3 pages of this thread now. Whether it's right or wrong for him to be allowed to study medicine at KCL, whether he should or should not be able to pursue his dream of being a doctor, these things are all completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that on your UCAS form you are expected to declare ALL your previous education, and that UK medical schools don't want to accept people who've dropped out of courses previously. Whether his increased medical knowledge is beneficial or not is completely beside the point. He contravened the terms of his acceptance at KCL by withholding information, and as such can consider himself very lucky that he didn't get booted out.
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    (Original post by rainbowbex)
    it's not.
    This. I think the person that said you have to sign a form doesn't even go to med school ....

    None of my cousins who have been to Cambridge, UCL, ICL and KCL have had to sign a form. In fact they have never even been asked about it ? Weird isn't it ?

    This thread is a typical example of everyone on TSR jumping the gun completly. His tutor asked him after he told her the following ''did you receive any government funding when you were in India ?'' He said no and after that she didn't give a damn.

    To the guy who's going on about a lack of dedication being the reason they don't admit people again. You don't know that not can you prove it. The fact of the matter is in many countries they allow re-entry to medical school. My uncle in America got back in to medical school after being kicked out. He was kicked out for failing a semester but doctors get back in to medical school after being dismissed from other medical schools for things like cheating !! Why would they allow it there ? Maybe because they're private. I think so.

    I went to pharmacy school straight after college and seriously regret it. If you'd of told me that I can't do the job I want to do because of that I'd of been devastated.

    When you guys actually become doctors you'll see the most important thing is that you look after your patient. I've been going to doctors dinners all my life and they all talk about it. Doctor's saying they have told blatant lies to get there patients medication. Doctors who have lied to police officers to protect patients. Doctors who lie to administrators to keep patients admitted even though they have discharge quotas. There's an anonymous journal in Australia where doctors submit stories of how they have broken the rules to save/help a patient. You guys should check it out. It's ok to break the rules sometimes.

    Example I've just been told this second. You have a dieing patient, He's extremely old and has a few weeks to live. A test result comes back that he is positive for rectal cancer which has a very high prevelance in old people. He asks you how the test was ? You're all medical students so you're all gonna say you tell him about it. You follow your precious GMC guidelines right ? Well the doctor sat next to me who's been a doctor longer than anyone on this forum tells me you lie to him and that you'll all see that when you're a doctor and not someone with a medical degree being trained.


    Stop going on about this Dr that got his license taken away because I couldn't care less about his extreme situation. Maybe you can find me another case study ? You all have one atm If you all think that only one doctor has ever told a lie on his UCAS form you're all rather naice. I know 4 or 5 that have told lies much worse than that.

    If it affects you saints so much. The doctors that never lie. Please tell the GMC the story of what someone at KCL is doing. I'm sure they will move swiftly to have him removed from medical school .... or not.

    I'm waiting for the neg rep on this one. Then again from what all the doctors around me are saying this is what medical students are like. Full of useless semantics that apply to everyone except them. After this thread I know why I hear so many complaints about this generation of medical students. Why I've seen doctors hang up the phone to FY docs all the time for being idiots. Then the other half of people who are just bitter that they aren't medical students themselves.
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    (Original post by Arenas123)
    There's an anonymous journal in Australia where doctors submit stories of how they have broken the rules to save/help a patient.
    Link? That sounds pretty interesting.
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    (Original post by Arenas123)
    This. I think the person that said you have to sign a form doesn't even go to med school ....

    None of my cousins who have been to Cambridge, UCL, ICL and KCL have had to sign a form. In fact they have never even been asked about it ? Weird isn't it ?

    This thread is a typical example of everyone on TSR jumping the gun completly. His tutor asked him after he told her the following ''did you receive any government funding when you were in India ?'' He said no and after that she didn't give a damn.

    To the guy who's going on about a lack of dedication being the reason they don't admit people again. You don't know that not can you prove it. The fact of the matter is in many countries they allow re-entry to medical school. My uncle in America got back in to medical school after being kicked out. He was kicked out for failing a semester but doctors get back in to medical school after being dismissed from other medical schools for things like cheating !! Why would they allow it there ? Maybe because they're private. I think so.

    I went to pharmacy school straight after college and seriously regret it. If you'd of told me that I can't do the job I want to do because of that I'd of been devastated.

    When you guys actually become doctors you'll see the most important thing is that you look after your patient. I've been going to doctors dinners all my life and they all talk about it. Doctor's saying they have told blatant lies to get there patients medication. Doctors who have lied to police officers to protect patients. Doctors who lie to administrators to keep patients admitted even though they have discharge quotas. There's an anonymous journal in Australia where doctors submit stories of how they have broken the rules to save/help a patient. You guys should check it out. It's ok to break the rules sometimes.

    Example I've just been told this second. You have a dieing patient, He's extremely old and has a few weeks to live. A test result comes back that he is positive for rectal cancer which has a very high prevelance in old people. He asks you how the test was ? You're all medical students so you're all gonna say you tell him about it. You follow your precious GMC guidelines right ? Well the doctor sat next to me who's been a doctor longer than anyone on this forum tells me you lie to him and that you'll all see that when you're a doctor and not someone with a medical degree being trained.


    Stop going on about this Dr that got his license taken away because I couldn't care less about his extreme situation. Maybe you can find me another case study ? You all have one atm If you all think that only one doctor has ever told a lie on his UCAS form you're all rather naice. I know 4 or 5 that have told lies much worse than that.

    If it affects you saints so much. The doctors that never lie. Please tell the GMC the story of what someone at KCL is doing. I'm sure they will move swiftly to have him removed from medical school .... or not.

    I'm waiting for the neg rep on this one. Then again from what all the doctors around me are saying this is what medical students are like. Full of useless semantics that apply to everyone except them. After this thread I know why I hear so many complaints about this generation of medical students. Why I've seen doctors hang up the phone to FY docs all the time for being idiots. Then the other half of people who are just bitter that they aren't medical students themselves.
    I am not sure if you are actually stupid or are just acting dense. In either case, point by point, here's a retort:

    1. Although some medical schools do not give their own declaration during freshers doesn't matter because he as already digitally signed a declaration through UCAS. Irrelevant point.

    2. No, this is a typical thread on the medicine forum where lots and lots of people who generally know what they are talking about give their opinions and somebody who can't read and comprehend properly doesn't understand them. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are automatically wrong.

    3. Brilliant anecdote. Unfortunately, it means **** all. It means even less because it is talking about medical schools in the USA.

    4. I know you'd have been devastated. But the fact of the matter is that 1) pharmacy school is not medical school and 2) you did not lie to get in.

    5. Irrelevant points. As much as you like watching 'House' and applying it to real life, if doctors compulsively lied like you are insinuating then paper trails would come and bite them in the ass.

    6. Lie to him? That's ridiculous. This may be just my own bias view but I'd never tell a patient he was not going to die when he is - that's so cruel.

    So basically, yet again, you miss the point completely and condone lying because "I heard a story about doctors in Australia that lie a lot."
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    (Original post by Arenas123)

    When you guys actually become doctors you'll see the most important thing is that you look after your patient. I've been going to doctors dinners all my life and they all talk about it. Doctor's saying they have told blatant lies to get there patients medication. Doctors who have lied to police officers to protect patients. Doctors who lie to administrators to keep patients admitted even though they have discharge quotas. There's an anonymous journal in Australia where doctors submit stories of how they have broken the rules to save/help a patient. You guys should check it out. It's ok to break the rules sometimes.
    You've been watching too much scrubs/house.
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    (Original post by Altrozero)
    You've been watching too much scrubs/house.
    If he ends up not being able to cite the journal, I am pretty sure I can remember all those things happening one time or another during House. :p:
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    (Original post by BigFudamental)
    . What is relevant is that on your UCAS form you are expected to declare ALL your previous education, and that UK medical schools don't want to accept people who've dropped out of courses previously.
    but they do accept them. so many beliefs based on fallacies on this forum that its unbelievable.
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    if you are being blackmailed then go to the police, that will be the end of it.

    if he/she is asking for money, then they must be desperate for cash for some rather odd reason.
 
 
 
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