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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Personally, I felt the "casual" games market properly peaked with the PS2, not the Wii. The Wii may be in more homes, but there were more "casual" games out there on the PS2. I think the Wii is really the PS2's spiritual successor in that area, though, which is a pity, as it is such a great console.

    2nd party/3rd party support has made it the party console, though. Without them, it would've died a death. Nintendo doesn't really tend to make that many games outside of its flagship titles anymore.

    As for Mario Galaxy, well, I've got the first one, but I haven't really played it. Not the biggest fan of those games. Wouldn't call it "massively over-rated", though. Considering how popular it is and the reviews its got, it's hard not to be overrated, mind. Still leaves you with Metroid, Pokémon, Legend of Zelda and a few others I'm forgetting.

    I also think that Twilight Princess, whilst better than OoT, is not as good as Majora's Mask. Otherwise, I think they've only improved with their own games, really.
    I disagree; there was an insane number of games on the PS2, true, but it wasn't marketed as a 'casual' console like the Wii. Did you ever see Ant and Dec cosying up on a sofa together playing Metal Gear Solid?

    Yeah. It got heavy 3rd party support because low brow game developers saw they could make a quick buck out of it. It doesn't have a huge amount of NOTABLE 3rd party support though. Still, that's one of the reasons it's so succesful.

    I have the first one, played the second one. They're good games, always fun to play, but still nothing which draws you in and makes you want to call home about. Just like every other review seems to say. Like I said, a 10/10 score means **** all nowadays.

    I LOVED twilight princess ^^ THe DS ones were crappy and half-baked though. I thought the new Zelda could be a contender for OoT untill E3...
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    (Original post by Slab'o'Butter)
    I resent the acusation that I havent a clue when it comes to new releases. I have played the vast majority of worthwhile new releases and I simply can not relate to most of their value in a gaming sense as I have previous.

    In response - Games like Bioshock, Assasins Creed, Heavy Rain, KOTR etc etc. are plainly granted - I didn't mention them because it seemed irelevant. I already cited I wasn't talking about ALL modern games - and if you were already experienced in gaming, I felt I wouldn't really have to spell out those exceptions.

    From the very begining of the thread I have cited I'm not ****ging off new releases. My wallet appears to agree. But I can't help but see somthing significant is, overall, missing in this generation of games.
    Sorry, I didn't see myself as once accusing you of not having a clue :/ You'd already made quite clear throughout the thread that you did. I also made quite certain to avoid any examples of games (except HL2).

    Your argument seems to be that: games are becoming increasingly commercialised and profit-driven compared to 1997-2004; that on average, games aren't as good as they were. Is that what you feel your argument is?
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    (Original post by FallenPetal)
    I disagree; there was an insane number of games on the PS2, true, but it wasn't marketed as a 'casual' console like the Wii. Did you ever see Ant and Dec cosying up on a sofa together playing Metal Gear Solid?

    Yeah. It got heavy 3rd party support because low brow game developers saw they could make a quick buck out of it. It doesn't have a huge amount of NOTABLE 3rd party support though. Still, that's one of the reasons it's so succesful.

    I have the first one, played the second one. They're good games, always fun to play, but still nothing which draws you in and makes you want to call home about. Just like every other review seems to say. Like I said, a 10/10 score means **** all nowadays.

    I LOVED twilight princess ^^ THe DS ones were crappy and half-baked though. I thought the new Zelda could be a contender for OoT untill E3...
    Your focusing too much on the marketing now. I've already admitted that the Wii marketed itself as a party, "casual" console, but it would never have succeeded as that without the support of 3rd party developers. Most of whom jumped ship from the PS2. I may never have seen Ant and Dec playing MGS on the PS2, but I had to wade through enough Barbie and... titles in the PS2 shelves when hunting for my RPGs back in the day.

    In regards to notable 3rd party support, they've got some from Ubisoft, Squeenix, EA and Activision. They're pretty notable. Hell, Squeenix are developing one of their biggest titles for the Wii right now; in fact it's their biggest selling title in Japan.

    I'm not denying that the Wii is doing well because of it's support from "casual" gamers. I'm just not saying that the Wii is the cause of the flood of crappy, "casual" games. As I've stated, my own perception is that there were as many, if not more, of those games on the PS2. Obviously I've no idea about that and it would take more research than I care to do, but I really don't think the amount has actually increased that much since the PS2 came out.

    As for the 10/10 part, I'm not so sure. If we ignored the companies' own magazines, like NOM, or websites known to be in the pockets of the companies, then I think the score can be very accurate. You just have to be critical about which reviews you read, etc.

    I adored the DS Legend of Zelda games. Absolutely adored them, thought they were great. Twilight Princess was an amazing game, though it could've done with actually being designed for the Wii and not just ported from the Gamecube with everything mirrored. I can't wait for Skyward Sword. Why do you think that it won't be as good as OoT?
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    (Original post by estel)
    a reason to escape readily presents itself once you reach the stage where that's what you're supposed to do.?
    But why not just stay at the very start? Game 'solved'- happy with current surroundings thank you very much.

    (I realise that the same could be said of many games but the puzzle nature of Portal seems to imply that it has the upper hand over the player- that it is testing the player rather than providing them with an adventure that they must experience for fun).

    (Original post by estel)
    How can action be 'papery'?
    That seems to be depending on whether the level allows collection of items or bumping of blocks, Mario style. So, yes, most levels probably won't look papery.
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    (Original post by noggins)
    Do you think any game deserves a 10/10? If so, which ones?
    ...not really. 10 implies that the game is perfect, or at the very least a near approximation.

    I guess if I had to pick one it would be Mass Effect 2 because it does tick a lot of boxes...

    ...but it's still a glitchy, loveable mess ^^
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Your focusing too much on the marketing now. I've already admitted that the Wii marketed itself as a party, "casual" console, but it would never have succeeded as that without the support of 3rd party developers. Most of whom jumped ship from the PS2. I may never have seen Ant and Dec playing MGS on the PS2, but I had to wade through enough Barbie and... titles in the PS2 shelves when hunting for my RPGs back in the day.

    In regards to notable 3rd party support, they've got some from Ubisoft, Squeenix, EA and Activision. They're pretty notable. Hell, Squeenix are developing one of their biggest titles for the Wii right now; in fact it's their biggest selling title in Japan.

    I'm not denying that the Wii is doing well because of it's support from "casual" gamers. I'm just not saying that the Wii is the cause of the flood of crappy, "casual" games. As I've stated, my own perception is that there were as many, if not more, of those games on the PS2. Obviously I've no idea about that and it would take more research than I care to do, but I really don't think the amount has actually increased that much since the PS2 came out.

    As for the 10/10 part, I'm not so sure. If we ignored the companies' own magazines, like NOM, or websites known to be in the pockets of the companies, then I think the score can be very accurate. You just have to be critical about which reviews you read, etc.

    I adored the DS Legend of Zelda games. Absolutely adored them, thought they were great. Twilight Princess was an amazing game, though it could've done with actually being designed for the Wii and not just ported from the Gamecube with everything mirrored. I can't wait for Skyward Sword. Why do you think that it won't be as good as OoT?
    ...and I have to rifle through the varios 'Ninjabread Man's in the store. Besides, Nintendo have pulled focus on the Wii from their main series to a bunch of casual games. Not even Sony stooped that low. Most people bought a PS2 to play games. Most people bought a Wii to shut their kids up with Bratz slumber party, for some brain training game and for Wii fit. It is a casual console.

    ...all companies which develop for PS3 and Xbox anyway. In terms of serious and/or exclusive 3rd party support the Xbox blows the Wii out of the water (can't say so much for PS3 - I don't own one).

    And I think there were a stupid amount of games on PS2 - 3rd party developers always side with the most popular console and the PS2 was a big selling console. All I'm saying is the Wii is more of a casual console because of it's marketing, whereas the PS2 was at least roughly aimed in the direction of traditional gamers.

    ...and the game which is being reviewed. Anything by Rockstar is insta 10/10 I use them as a guide as to whats good about the game/whats bad about the game but I don't see the score as conclusive.

    I felt the first game was a fantastic story (one of the best) just poorly executed. The second was just a rehash of the first with a watered down story. Nintendo sold out. +I hate the art style. WW only worked because it was so drastically different from OoT, this just feels like a half assed merging to please those who whined about TP graphics.
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    (Original post by FallenPetal)
    ...not really. 10 implies that the game is perfect, or at the very least a near approximation.

    I guess if I had to pick one it would be Mass Effect 2 because it does tick a lot of boxes...

    ...but it's still a glitchy, loveable mess ^^
    Gotta say I agree with you on the Mass Effect series they rocked, one of the few games I play play several times over

    From looking at the thread so far, I gotta agree with the person who said the good games are still here but there's just a lot more rubbish ones out there for previously cited reasons.

    I'm kinda suprised nobody has mentioned mmorpg's or anything, probably because they have the biggest stigma, but surely they're the ones at the moment that are pushing the boundaries? Lots of big ones coming out soon, star wars the old republic, guildwars 2, terra and so on. The new WoW cataclysm has come out too, expanding the whole multiplayer and single player game formats into one platform which seems good.

    But going back to RTS games, there haven't been many good ones since C&C red alert, aside from maybe civ 4, rome total war and sc2 which is a shame
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    CoD was only good when I played with girls.
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    (Original post by mattdst)

    I'm kinda suprised nobody has mentioned mmorpg's or anything, probably because they have the biggest stigma, but surely they're the ones at the moment that are pushing the boundaries? Lots of big ones coming out soon, star wars the old republic, guildwars 2, terra and so on. The new WoW cataclysm has come out too, expanding the whole multiplayer and single player game formats into one platform which seems good.

    I Played the game Project Entopia, now known as Entropia Universe since I was 12-16. Ended up investing £1300 overall in real cash soley via pester power (None of that money was mine at that age! And we are very much lower middle class) using Splash plastic.

    Thoroughly enjoyed the gaming experience, but in retrospect - I was playing a big boy's game, and I was a child.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4421496.stm
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    (Original post by Picnic1)
    But why not just stay at the very start? Game 'solved'- happy with current surroundings thank you very much.
    You're quite welcome to do that, but the vast majority of games create an environment that encourages exploration as its own reward. To say that you can just sit at your spawn is probably true of most games :/
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    Theres plenty of "good" games being released, but I don't think the industry has seen genre-defining games like those mentioned in the OP for a while. Things like Ocarina of Time (it's not just the PC games that have changed), Metal Gear Solid, Deus Ex, Half-Life and Total Annihilation, games as innovative and strong as these aren't released anymore. The industry is (creatively) stagnating somewhat, but it's making more cash than ever before. Things like Modern Warfare 2 and Halo: Reach are good games, but they won't be revered as the previously mentioned games will be in 5-6 years time.
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    Online console multiplayer mode has greatly changed the industry. The result is a game like COD provides a hell of a lot of gaming hours than a game ten years would have provided, plus it leads to a herd mentality - people want games that everyone else has in order to play online with. So the top games sell well, and thus developers seek to extract more cash from those titles through add ons etc, but there's less demand for median titles/innovation. Evidently this will lead to sequel after sequel - just look at how everyone anticipates the next COD.
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    (Original post by FallenPetal)
    ...and I have to rifle through the varios 'Ninjabread Man's in the store. Besides, Nintendo have pulled focus on the Wii from their main series to a bunch of casual games. Not even Sony stooped that low. Most people bought a PS2 to play games. Most people bought a Wii to shut their kids up with Bratz slumber party, for some brain training game and for Wii fit. It is a casual console.
    Your point being? You keep repeating yourself and not really answering any of the points I make related to this issue. I've already said that Nintendo have marketed it as a party console. I've never denied this. Really don't see what you're getting at any more.

    I disagree with it being a "casual console", however. Was the PS2 a "casual console" despite having a similar number of "casual" games? No. There are enough "hardcore" games on the Wii if you pay attention to the releases. No console is "hardcore" or "casual", just the gamers themselves.


    (Original post by FallenPetal)
    ...all companies which develop for PS3 and Xbox anyway. In terms of serious and/or exclusive 3rd party support the Xbox blows the Wii out of the water (can't say so much for PS3 - I don't own one).
    A completely different argument from the one you offered previously. So it's gone from not having "NOTABLE (sic) support" to having support, but from companies who support the other consoles as well. Make up your mind, please. It clearly has 3rd party support, from "NOTABLE (sic)" developers. What does it matter if they aren't always exclusive to the Wii?

    Besides, the Wii does not need exclusives as much from 3rd party developers. Aside from having Sega pretty much in their pocket, Nintendo is itself a games publisher. Unlike Sony or Microsoft, it can create its own exclusives. Mario, Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Pokémon, Pikmin, Super Smash Brothers, Donkey Kong, Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, Fire Emblem and more through the 2nd party studios.

    On top of that it also has Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles and is getting Dragon Questi X (their biggest series in Japan) from Squeenix. There's also been a few Tales of... exclusives and others as well, though I can't be assed to do more research.

    Considering very few series are actually exclusives anymore (just go to Game and see how many can be bought on the PS3 or the 360), the Wii actually has a decent catalogue of games you can get nowhere else.


    (Original post by FallenPetal)
    And I think there were a stupid amount of games on PS2 - 3rd party developers always side with the most popular console and the PS2 was a big selling console. All I'm saying is the Wii is more of a casual console because of it's marketing, whereas the PS2 was at least roughly aimed in the direction of traditional gamers.
    The PS2 was aimed at the masses. Why do you think it had a DVD player? It was a home entertainment system, not a games console. Sony just didn't do a good enough job at marketing it as such as Nintendo did. As I said above, it's the gamer who is "casual" or "hardcore", not the consoles themselves.


    (Original post by FallenPetal)
    ...and the game which is being reviewed. Anything by Rockstar is insta 10/10 I use them as a guide as to whats good about the game/whats bad about the game but I don't see the score as conclusive.
    I don't think anyone does.


    (Original post by FallenPetal)
    I felt the first game was a fantastic story (one of the best) just poorly executed. The second was just a rehash of the first with a watered down story. Nintendo sold out. +I hate the art style. WW only worked because it was so drastically different from OoT, this just feels like a half assed merging to please those who whined about TP graphics.
    Aside from the fact they have completely different stories, PHand ST, that is. Sure, they used similar dungeon mechanics, but hugely different stories. Did you miss the obvious Ganondorf references in ST? I would hardly call either selling out.

    WW almost failed because of its graphic style and hugely divided fans. I happen to think the art style suited the tone of the game, really. You're beginning to sound like the kind of fan who wants realistic graphics in their games; the kind that whined when the art direction of WW suddenly changed. Considering the art style in SS is hugely different to WW, I would hardly call it a half assed merging or judge it before you've even played it. Personally, I think the game looks amazing and I look forward to finding out how the Master Sword came into being. That will be one hell of a story.

    You're welcome to your opinion on it, though, like. I just find judging a game, before playing it, on the basis of its graphics ridiculous.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    The PS2 was aimed at the masses. Why do you think it had a DVD player? It was a home entertainment system, not a games console. Sony just didn't do a good enough job at marketing it as such as Nintendo did. As I said above, it's the gamer who is "casual" or "hardcore", not the consoles themselves.
    When it comes to marketing, are you referring to sales figures primarily? Given the trends we've seen in Wii sale-through this year, do you think that the Wii will ultimately outsell the PS2's 150 million units shipped? (Wii is currently on about half that).
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    Ah well , there are some truly great games now like Bfbc2 and the previously mentioned assasins creed.But most games are now made for shock and awe.The adverts have the effect on pre adolesants as such"Muuuuuuum I Wana get that game even though I got four last week and then scream at the online community about their sexuality and how I fondled their mother" Call of duty isn't skill online anymore any well thought strategy can be countered by a 9yr old camping with claymores and AK74us.Anyone still remember Grand turismo for the ps1 good times.And Mario 64 *drifts back to the time lurid yellow and purple tracksuits were cool*
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    Warcraft III:TFT :coma:
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    (Original post by AwsomePossum)
    Ah well , there are some truly great games now like Bfbc2 and the previously mentioned assasins creed.But most games are now made for shock and awe.The adverts have the effect on pre adolesants as such"Muuuuuuum I Wana get that game even though I got four last week and then scream at the online community about their sexuality and how I fondled their mother" Call of duty isn't skill online anymore any well thought strategy can be countered by a 9yr old camping with claymores and AK74us.Anyone still remember Grand turismo for the ps1 good times.And Mario 64 *drifts back to the time lurid yellow and purple tracksuits were cool*
    late 90s :love:

    is Gran Turismo 5 capable of online yet? 30 people in a race or something?
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    Deus Ex, blast from the past. I used to love that game.
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    *Looks over to the right, at the somewhat out-dated shelf of games*

    Assassin's Creed 2
    Mass Effect 2
    Mirror's Edge
    Gears of War 2
    Bioshock 2
    The Orange Box
    Viva Pinata
    Halo 3/ODST/Reach
    Overlord
    Fable 2

    Majority of these games were very commercial, critical and financial hits, and part of an extremely innovative new series.

    Yes we have Black Ops and the like these days.

    But we do also have Braid, Limbo, Super Meat Boy, PB Winterbottom. World of Goo, 'Splosion Man and many other new, innovative and indie games.

    And though the future of console gaming seems to be targeted towards the masses (which is neither here nor there really), the Wii was a fantastic piece of technological innovation. Move is taking it further, and Kinect has took it to a different level opening up another entire floor of doors. The technology being brought to our living rooms is becoming more and more exciting, a feat which seems to be overlooked by the fact that no one wants to play Kinectimals.

    The industry's growing, maturing and establishing itself properly as one of the big players in the entertainment industry - we can thank the success of the CoD series for that much, surely. But I don't think the 'hardcore gamers' have suffered/are suffering as a result of this. We didn't get Deus Ex, but we got KotOR. No Baldur's Gate, but Dragon Age and Mass Effect. No Hitman, but games like Assassin's Creed and wildcard boundary-pushers like Mirror's Edge.

    In the future, someone might say 'What Happened to Gaming?' and people will look back on these days happening now as times of innovation.

    Just sayin'.
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    Its true, the gaming industry is dying slowly but surely :/ More and more games churned out that appeal to the short attention spans of the masses that want as much out of it for as little effort and skill as possible. I keep going back to the old games and classics more and more often; Knights and Merchants (still one of the hardest games Ive ever come across, and completely unique), Half Life, Warcraft 3, Starcraft. All the games released now all seem the same, there's rarely any real character. When Majesty was released it did so well because it didnt follow the strategy game stereotype. And when you compare Rome Total War to Empire Total War, you see how dumbed down the series has become..
 
 
 
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