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Why is everyone so upset over tuition fees reform? Watch

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    (Original post by wibletg)
    Well obviously Universities are not going to feel the immediate benefit of any fees increase, in any system it takes time for changes to be felt?
    While that might be the case. No other factors are being taken into consideration for the change. Several Us universities for example fell in the rankings.

    And you would have to propose a reason why a student contribution to university fees would automatically increase the universitys standing.
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    (Original post by d123)
    It's the principle. Education should be free. Like the NHS and other pillars of the welfare state, it's just something that I believe is important. Also £9000 a year is a hell of a lot of money. It may not seem like that much if you look at repayment rates, but being saddled with £27000 debt just from tuition fees isn't something anyone wants to have. Of course people who don't have a university education should pay to subsidise those who do! Besides, they benefit from it as well; not all graduates go on to be doctors, teachers etc but a substantial number work in careers that directly benefit the general public.

    Also, the problem isn't just with tuition fees, but also with the cuts to the university budgets. Funding for arts and humanities subjects is almost entirely ceasing. It's a separate issue to tuition fees but also one which enrages me.
    Dorry to burst your bubble, but education can't be funded by good will and roses. Nothing is free. That free health service? Taxes.
    Now I agree £9000 is too much and just will increase debts and make it harder for people to get loans and mortgages, but come on, we can't be naive and say "it shud be freee!", the world doesn't work like that. And honestly, arts and humanities are pretty pointless in terms of degrees.
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    (Original post by Mazty)
    Dorry to burst your bubble, but education can't be funded by good will and roses. Nothing is free. That free health service? Taxes.
    Now I agree £9000 is too much and just will increase debts and make it harder for people to get loans and mortgages, but come on, we can't be naive and say "it shud be freee!", the world doesn't work like that. And honestly, arts and humanities are pretty pointless in terms of degrees.
    By free most people mean that it should be paid through taxes.. To be honest i would perfectly support any measure for a student to pay a small proportion of the fees. Many countries use this method, benefitting from a educated workforce which can compete economically on an international level.

    Currently many of our courses are worthless economically. But that does not mean all economically worthless degrees should be unsupported, cultural benefits are important so courses like humanities and art should be supported but with a limited number of places to reduce negative economic impact.

    Every country needs a group of academics/thinkers but there needs to be a restructuring of courses in our universities so students going into them are going to be able to compete economically against other international graduates. This is an area where sadly neither labour nor the conservatives are willing to address.
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    (Original post by TShadow383)
    It all seems utterly mental to me, and the whole situation seems to have got so far out of hand that nobody is actually looking at the big picture anymore.
    The big picture is that one of the richest countries in the world cannot be bothered to find the funds for (higher) education. But can find the funds for things like Trident or the Iraq war, and people are so blinded by 'omg national security is so important the nukes will deter n. korea and iran omg'

    And the fact that the government effectively has created a inter-generational re-distribution that benefits the government's generation.
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    (Original post by Excandersham)
    By free most people mean that it should be paid through taxes.. To be honest i would perfectly support any measure for a student to pay a small proportion of the fees. Many countries use this method, benefitting from a educated workforce which can compete economically on an international level.

    Currently many of our courses are worthless economically. But that does not mean all economically worthless degrees should be unsupported, cultural benefits are important so courses like humanities and art should be supported but with a limited number of places to reduce negative economic impact.

    Every country needs a group of academics/thinkers but there needs to be a restructuring of courses in our universities so students going into them are going to be able to compete economically against other international graduates. This is an area where sadly neither labour nor the conservatives are willing to address.

    Sadly, I can't see that restructuring happening any time soon. You can hear what the out cry will be : "You can't tell us what we should learn!!!!" :facepalm:
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    Hate it when people think they know better than seasoned politicians who actually have experience running a country...
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    (Original post by Excandersham)
    Wales with an even more limited budget managed it.

    Theres no question we can afford it. It's a question of priority.
    Can't be bothered to read the whole thread so someone may have pointed it out but it isn't free in Wales...?

    They just don't have to pay the £9000 (don't quote me on this) but only about £4500 I think..

    It's free for Scots in Scotland but I can't see that lasting forever.

    An increase in fees would maybe have been necessary but to almost triple them is ridiculous.

    Also Nick Clegg is totally being used as a scape goat here; what about David Cameron? or the Labour party who actually called for the Browne review??

    Sorry to rant people
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    (Original post by Mazty)
    Dorry to burst your bubble, but education can't be funded by good will and roses. Nothing is free. That free health service? Taxes.
    Now I agree £9000 is too much and just will increase debts and make it harder for people to get loans and mortgages, but come on, we can't be naive and say "it shud be freee!", the world doesn't work like that. And honestly, arts and humanities are pretty pointless in terms of degrees.
    I'm sorry, but what?

    Part of the point of university is learning for learning's sake. Being in an environment where you are surrounded by knowledge to absorb some of that, to study a subject you are truly interested in, arts and humanities included. University shouldn't be about adding an extra couple of grand onto your salary.
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    (Original post by trappers)
    Can't be bothered to read the whole thread so someone may have pointed it out but it isn't free in Wales...?

    They just don't have to pay the £9000 (don't quote me on this) but only about £4500 I think..

    It's free for Scots in Scotland but I can't see that lasting forever.

    An increase in fees would maybe have been necessary but to almost triple them is ridiculous.

    Also Nick Clegg is totally being used as a scape goat here; what about David Cameron? or the Labour party who actually called for the Browne review??

    Sorry to rant people
    My response was to a person saying the rise was necessary.


    Wales it's 3290 pounds per year. Wales also use to give an excellence bursary which paid around 3000 pounds to help with the course, but i'm not sure if it's staying.
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    (Original post by qasman)
    Hate it when people think they know better than seasoned politicians who actually have experience running a country...
    Only 1% of the government have experience running the country.
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    (Original post by d123)
    I'm sorry, but what?

    Part of the point of university is learning for learning's sake. Being in an environment where you are surrounded by knowledge to absorb some of that, to study a subject you are truly interested in, arts and humanities included. University shouldn't be about adding an extra couple of grand onto your salary.
    But how many history etc students actually love the subject? Or do they go to avoid work for 3 years and just get a degree in drinking? Also it shows they aren't the brightest if they think it's a good idea to pursue an interest at the cost of £20,000+ that doesn't lead anywhere.
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    (Original post by Mazty)
    But how many history etc students actually love the subject? Or do they go to avoid work for 3 years and just get a degree in drinking? Also it shows they aren't the brightest if they think it's a good idea to pursue an interest at the cost of £20,000+ that doesn't lead anywhere.
    But it does lead somewhere! Worth cannot be calculated purely in economic terms.
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    (Original post by karateworm)
    Also, whilst everyone can bang on about how poorer students aren't really affected... if you're not very well off, £9000 a year is going to put you right off.
    perhaps...but as someone who is a "poorer student"...

    (ie. I get the full EMA, share a room with bro and sis, etc. etc.)

    I would still go to uni (med school) even it it was £12,000 a year...

    simply as its worth it....because due to said medical degree, I would be earning 100K+.... so having 80K-ish STUDENT debt doesn't worry me due to the financial stability of a medical career....(although money isn't my motivater etc....its stupid to say that I haven't looked at the salaries)

    likewise, those attempting to do law, dentistry, etc. at top institutions won't be put off simply as its worth it...

    its those doing pottery, surf science, media studes, etc. that will not go anymore as its not worth it for them
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    (Original post by infernalcradle)
    perhaps...but as someone who is a "poorer student"...

    (ie. I get the full EMA, share a room with bro and sis, etc. etc.)

    I would still go to uni (med school) even it it was £12,000 a year...

    simply as its worth it....because due to said medical degree, I would be earning 100K+.... so having 80K-ish STUDENT debt doesn't worry me due to the financial stability of a medical career....(although money isn't my motivater etc....its stupid to say that I haven't looked at the salaries)

    likewise, those attempting to do law, dentistry, etc. at top institutions won't be put off simply as its worth it...

    its those doing pottery, surf science, media studes, etc. that will not go anymore as its not worth it for them
    looool this
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    (Original post by d123)
    But it does lead somewhere! Worth cannot be calculated purely in economic terms.
    When it results in debt yes it can :facepalm:
    You really want to study history? Read a history book. How is that literally worth £24,000? Stop being retarded and making what is nothing more than an interest into a financial burden. If it is not going to make you money or help you pursue a more favourable career, it is not worth doing at uni. Simple.
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    (Original post by infernalcradle)

    its those doing pottery, surf science, media studes, etc. that will not go anymore as its not worth it for them
    But as someone pointed out to me, they're too retarded to actually realise the implications of the debt and so will still do their mickey-mouse degrees
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    (Original post by Mazty)
    When it results in debt yes it can :facepalm:
    You really want to study history? Read a history book. How is that literally worth £24,000? Stop being retarded and making what is nothing more than an interest into a financial burden. If it is not going to make you money or help you pursue a more favourable career, it is not worth doing at uni. Simple.

    It's not being retarded! I don't understand what's so wrong about going to uni as education for education's sake! Besides, if people didn't study history, no one would be able to write those history books! You can also get a lot more out of studying a subject at uni than you would from simply reading a book about it as you get to talk to the experts in the field and be in an environment where you can surround yourself with learning.

    I'm not interested in making money. I'd also be interested to hear what you think is a 'more favourable career', because to me a good career is not simply about how much you earn or how much prestige you have. I don't really know what I want to do with my life, but at the moment I'm leaning towards either a career in academia or working for a charity. Working for a charity probably doesn't fit into your definition of a more favourable career but for me, that's intrinsically far more worth doing than being manager of some city hedge fund.
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    (Original post by Mazty)
    But as someone pointed out to me, they're too retarded to actually realise the implications of the debt and so will still do their mickey-mouse degrees
    hmm....good point...

    although, as I go to school with many students who wish to do degrees I didn't know existed at unis I didn't know existed...I can say that quite a lot of them would not go if it was 9k....but are if its 3k

    they all seem to agree that if they don't get in this year, they will just find a job etc..

    hence proof that it works...although I do agree that you will always have a few choice retards who still insist on doing a christian youth work degree at chester uni....(both actually exist as a friend of mine has applied to it..)

    http://search.ucas.com/cgi-bin/hsrun....run?n=1024789
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    (Original post by d123)
    It's not being retarded! I don't understand what's so wrong about going to uni as education for education's sake! Besides, if people didn't study history, no one would be able to write those history books! You can also get a lot more out of studying a subject at uni than you would from simply reading a book about it as you get to talk to the experts in the field and be in an environment where you can surround yourself with learning.

    I'm not interested in making money. I'd also be interested to hear what you think is a 'more favourable career', because to me a good career is not simply about how much you earn or how much prestige you have. I don't really know what I want to do with my life, but at the moment I'm leaning towards either a career in academia or working for a charity. Working for a charity probably doesn't fit into your definition of a more favourable career but for me, that's intrinsically far more worth doing than being manager of some city hedge fund.
    Favoruable career as in something you actuall want to pursue. Such as if you wish to academically pursue history &/or philosophy by either becoming a lectuer/teacher/historian etc then great, perfect kind of person to be doing the degree you are. It's the ones who do the degree with no intention of following it up, which is the majority of them, who are the problem.
    Only issue with charity work is how the hell do you expect to pay off your debts and get a mortgage if you come out and go into an exceptionally low paid job? I applaud (to some degree) your ethic of putting helping other people before money, but it doesn't seem at all wise to get yourself into debt just to educate yourself in something you are interested in and may not follow up.
    (Original post by pippa90)
    You like to hurl your abuse don't you? How is that offensive? And don't go 'because it ****ing it is you ****ing ****, go read about it', just tell me, okay?
    It's offensive because it shows an almost hedonistic level of ignorance; "Well I don't care that people have died, and are dying over it & it's a large political event that will shape the future of both warfare and a lesser degree politics, I'm just going to cruise through life going "Derp" and ignoring what really matters".
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    (Original post by Mazty)
    It's offensive because it shows an almost hedonistic level of ignorance; "Well I don't care that people have died, and are dying over it & it's a large political event that will shape the future of both warfare and a lesser degree politics, I'm just going to cruise through life going "Derp" and ignoring what really matters".
    Why are you quoting me on a completely different thread? And you can just **** right off because I have never said anything like that and you just keep coming up with all of these phases that you think that I'd say Get a ****ing life. I'm not ignorant, you just think that anyone who has a different opinion on something than you is.

    To all other members of TSR, don't listen to a word of this ****, I'm not going to any more.
 
 
 
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